Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Thanks DDM. Have downloaded and will work through it.

Now that is interesting! Never knew that! You are a mine of info DDM

Yes. Amazing. Such co-operation. No frazzled young couples or struggling single Moms with a new baby.... whole family raises the child and it learns to fit in with society. Disputes are handled quickly before they get too big. Each person is seen as valuable. A real sense of community. And as you said.... time to be human... not just surviving to pay the bills. TIme to think and enjoy life. Very special lessons. Thanks. Have saved them to file DDM.

I noticed they said that this life style regulates population growth and keeps it to what the land can support. I find that very interesting! Permaculture videos talk about how farmers created a mono crop and thus mono pest so they had to wage chemical war to kill bugs that would not have been a problem otherwise. In a similar way, our mass producing farms and way of life has allowed the unchecked growth in cities of another "pest"; people. By being so disconnected from the land people can take welfare and unproductive lives and have lots of babies because of the machine/energy driven cheap food supply. Something that can not happen in the culture of the above videos.

I also noted that they would come to work for other people and there is no payment, no exchange of goods, only a meal is provided. Everyone is of value and depends on everyone else. This got me to thinking about how in our system we focus of greed, taking more than our share and elevating our selves above others. Education and title for example say that "I" am more valuable than you because I paid someone for a piece of paper and time spent getting it. A doctor can charge more for half and hour than some people can make in months. I think this is wrong. Now I understand some people would get offended by the idea that all the time and money spent on education, however if that little bit of knowledge was free instead of using the old slave/apprentice mentality all it would take to learn a skill is, like the girl said in the video about spinning thread, sit beside someone doing it and you will learn it. I know people I hired from school were unable to do the real job until they were trained for it. So, all the degree they held was of no REAL value. It only shows that they *might stick to the trade and *might come to work regularly. Our society really needs to grow up and get beyond usury/theft and self elevation to be free in every aspect.

Well, that's my 2 cents worth

Never thought about it like that but I think you are right. No controls and everything out of balance in our system. In their culture if not enough food people die off... the weak and sickly. No cheap food or handouts... everyone works to eat.

I noticed this too.

Yes. I loved that too. Here was a woman interviewing her with all her education and she very quickly developed a deep respect for a people without that - in terms of our worldview. And how easily and willingly a skill was imparted. Each person was valuable and so skills were passed on as a natural process of life. Everyone belonged. Probably don't even have a word for suicide in their vocabulary.

Small communities like those in the video can make communism work. The word, of course, comes from the commune. Because these strong interpersonal relationships exist in the small community, I'll help my neighbor, and know that he'll help me later on.

Historically, this has dramatically not worked once you get above the small village size. It seems to be a facet of human nature that we really just can't care that much about a stranger that we don't personally know.

Yes. So true. The real seep-seated core idea of communism is community and sharing just as these people do. But those in government who promote communism as a political ideolgy have proved incapable of sharing anything. No value put on the masses. Just a manipulated work-force controlled by fear. They take fine ideas, sell them to the people, and then mangle them in selfish political aspiration. No leadership by example. Community is broken when all aren't equal in value and benefit. No wonder communism always fails.

By the same reasoning... capitalism will also fail.... particularly because it primarily involves "entities" rather than communities...

As is driven by decisions that relate to growth and survival of the entity... regardless of the work-force it may employ....

Where then... does this leave us.... where does the balance lie, and how do we address and build a new system??

Interesting points ROO.

Yes. And society controlled by capitalism is seen to be failing. The usual interpretation of such failing is in terms of economics.. the very nature of a capitalist society is to interpret life through a materialistic viewpoint - and we are seeing this part of the collapse evidenced even today - but the collapse is truly seen to have occurred when the individual lost his sense of belonging and value, and suicide became a regular occurance... now increasingly even among teenagers. The absolute lack of value placed upon one human life is seen in the rampant hold abortion is taking on one society after another. The weakest and most vulnerable of us is disposed of in the name of convenience. And the mindset of this society is brainwashed into accepting the pragmatic ramifications of this horror because we are after all over-populated.... or so we are told... we are told... we are told.... 1 in 12 would be the right survival rate for humanity to balance with earth's resources I am hearing. A dark side to "green policing". What if there weren't such a division between the very rich and the very poor in our world today? And I don't mean the rich giving everything away to the very poor..... they would eat it all up and be hungry again tomorrow. Mindset. But just the fact of very rich and very poor opens debate to the blanket statements accepted today that we are over-populated. If Agri-Business took its filthy hands off of growing food, how many communities would actually be able to feed themselves that now cannot? If every prosperous person took from his excess to teach and train others to prosper would this be the same world of today?

Decisions that relate to the growth and survival of the entity is how life works.... we just need to choose the right entity. An economic machine has no soul. Even those who think they are in control are owned. Huge economic wealth alone does not bring happiness, and the destruction of relationships is usually the cost the stronger the drive for this. Jesus Christ said that you can't serve Mammon (money) and God. To love the one you will hate the other.

The true entity is one human soul at a time.... how foreign such a concept in our world today. But how loud the desperate cry for it. One precious, treasured, valued, nurtured human soul at a time. Mothers being mothers and fathers being fathers to each new life that they are entrusted with. This will establish healthy families.. and healthy families create healthy communities.

It leaves us where we are today... in crisis. And no balance can be found in self-centred ambition... balanced selfishness is an oxymoron.

How do we build a new system? My friend, I expect we will diverge quite radically in opinion here, for I believe it to be: Love the Lord your God with all your, heart, with all your soul, with all your strength and with all your might ... and love your neighbour as yourself. Not possible except in a living relationship with a Loving God. Remove the Creator from His creation and you have chaos. Thinking His thoughts after Him will put us on a journey toward growth and change for the better. But it is a journey...... in relationship with One Who understands relationship. We have journeyed into crisis and would need to choose something radically different to journey away from crisis. The most radical change in our world today is accepting our need to be relationally linked to our Creator. We want to answer to no-one but ourselves. These are my personal beliefs. This is also the God I choose to serve. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life. So it must be my answer to your direct question.

But take this community under discussion. Raised in a culure centred around their core religious beliefs of Buddhism they are taught from young the ways of community and responsibility to something outside of themselves. Commercialism has destroyed the lives of those in the city who no longer live by these age old ways. Take the Amish and other such groups with their core Christian beliefs... the same is true in how they live meaningful worthwhile lives. The hard commercialism has not infiltrated to destroy their fabric of life. Mocked as an oddity in our western society they now will not go the way of those who laughed at them. They know how to feed themselves and build carriages and preserve leather and all kinds of things it would take years to learn. The real weatlh is stored within the people... their knowledge and skill applied toward the community... for the health of the community. They leave a true inheritance to those that follow. No stock market crash on skill and knowledge and character and ideals that honour and respect. There are really 2 kinds of economic growth in the world today. Buying and selling as set up by the Babylonians or sowing and reaping (giving and receiving) as set up by God.

I just want to add a note here ROO. I understand your radical disrespect for Christianity... I mean that... understand how you can think this way. I was once where you now stand. I also understand your shallow study in these things that have become so precious to me and so will not be willing to get into unpleasant wrangling over this on forum. Honest questions and debate I welcome because philosophical questions of life and its meaning are interesting to me.... as long as they are discussed in a spirit of respect and honour. Think of it as my way of having community on forum. I would enjoy discussing things with you on these terms. It is OK that we think differently. We are each an autonomous being with a free will to choose to react in community or not, to accept there is a God or not, to choose which God if we choose God. And I respect that. Discussions with those who differ in beliefs to mine are some of the most interesting I have had.

While I agree with much of what you say Cyara...

I will take exception to the last paragraph... not so much the "disrespect" for Christianity... whether "radical"... or not....

But your assertion that I may have arrived at that point via "shallow study in these things"...

You are sooooooo completely wrong... and if you've read my previous posts regarding religion and philosophy... you should know that I am widely read, have widely read... throughout my life....

And did so not only as part of my own spiritual journey.... but from pure interest...

I have examined all major religions (lean toward buddism), philosophies and political history...

This I have not done "lightly" or "shallowly".... indeed I'm quite prepared, and confident ... to debate such matters on a level well beyond that which occurs within this thread...

FYI... while I'll admit to never sitting my final year exams... my university education was a double major... in political studies and philosophy....

P.S. .... not that it really matters...

But I enrolled at University in mid Febuary 1972.... in April of that year... I turned 17...

I was still wagging school

I moved on from wagging school. Its now wagging work.

Hehe... I tried that, but since I am the CC&BW small business owner,
not much got done

I'm wagging work at this very minute.

I think the answer lies not in what are "we" going to do, but the answer lies in what am "I" going to do. Until it all comes crashing down people are not going to stop their sheep/lemming type march to the command of "higher authority" and self. People who feel "the call" need to withdraw from their ways and "standard of living" and produce what they need. Be you own boss, do you own thinking. When you work for other people most of your productivity profits others, but working for your self profits you. You can even take that to permaculture and produce all you own food and need almost nothing from the outside.

Each person and family needs to take a good hard look at reality. I know those people in the video are not lacking in anything! Though, many city dwellers would say its a terable way to live; no tv, no entertainment, no cars, no labor saving devices! Can you imagine working 4 months out of the year and having the rest of the year to pursue personal goals and growth or party if thats your thing? It would be amazing!

Its going to take a paradigm shift on a personal level of thinking and desires. I only wish I had found this "path", this way of thinking, when I was younger! I would have "arrived" by now

Personally Im looking at what is takes to transition. So far it has taken a lot of money, but I can see all that's really required is to lay down my leaned passions and walk away from all that this system offers. Build a shelter, acquire a large bag of seeds and live. However, I also like technology so I am trying to strike a balance. Real simple good living requires no machines and therefor for fuel, but perhaps there's a place in between where the best ideas are applied in a high/low tech way of living. Like air conditioning, chunk the machine, buy produced pipe and bury it in the ground for cool tubes, and have you seen how beautiful some of those straw houses are?


If culture continues disconnected from the earth (the real source) then it must all crumble at some point. My BSF worms are a lovely example. I have taken them from their natural environment, placed them in a manufactured home. I bring food produced off site by energy and feed them. They are so happy and well fed they breed like mad. before long there is a very large very happy worm city, but one fall day the food stops coming or slows and the worms in their cozy manufactured home suddenly find out they cant survive. Some leave for the country, but they cant get far enough to get food with all the competition from the other worms. In good time they all dye or are eaten by predators (my chickens). Their system has collapsed. Had they been left in their natural life where growth depends on normal levels of supply, without energy input, they would have never reached such a large population and may never face this problem. Now had the food never stopped coming they would have simple continued to grow until their population exceeded the ability to supply food and new housing.

Me, Im leaving the worm bin while there is still some country left, but I can imagine a time when the mod will pass through consuming and taking everything. I mean look at the us where they passed as law so that cities can take any land if they see a more productive use for it, like a walmart. "sorry farmer fed you gota go get a job we are taking you land so people can shop more conveniently. Get to work you bum!"

If enough people withdraw the system will come down. With everyone producing for them selves and not paying into the system it will grind to a halt. However, there are SO MANY stupid sheep that perhaps there would never be enough independent thinkers come out that they would simply grow and over run everything, or if we are lucky it will all come crashing down before they overrun the whole earth with paved city.