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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '09, 09:45 
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I have a system that is constantly tending towards acidic. 1000L of tank with about 400L of growbed with gravel substrate. I don't know exactly how acidic it keeps going but it's off the scale. It took 3/4 of a box of sodium bicarbonate to bring it back to 7 the first time but now it's getting acidic again. I have added a bucket of seashells to the fish tank but it's not buffering fast enough and I need to do more now. I recall reading somewhere that you can't use too much sodium bicarb because of too much sodium so for the benefit of other beginners, can someone please list reccomended additives for changing the Ph of a system. I only need to reduce acidity but others might need to increase it so we might as well list both. I think it's a big enough question to warrant an entry into the FAQ.


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '09, 09:57 
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if there was more information i/we might be able to give a better assessment. What medium are you using? How about the water you are using to start with? what are its parameters?, is it hard/soft?.
Exactly how much sodium have you used?(weight)

with a little more info it will be easier to understand the problem and find to correct answer.


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '09, 12:29 
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My medium is a mix of different sizes of river rocks. 5mm and 10mm. So far I have used an entire box of sodium bicard, which I think is 250grams.
I get water from a rain tank which is collected from a colorbond roof and stored in a plastic tank. I haven't actually checked the ph of the water. I was really just after a list of things that are safe to add...I'll just add a little at a time to get results but want to know what is safe and/or reccomended.


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '09, 13:10 
Calcium Carbonate or Potassium BiCarbonate are the two primary buffering products to use ... IMO...

Both readily available... Potassium BiCarbonate is sold (Bunnings, Magnamart) as "EcoRose"...

It's a certified organic input... and provides potassium as well as having a buffering effect...

Calcium Carbonate is available for rural supply shops... horse suppliers etc... but shell grit will do just as well... although more a slow release buffer over time....

Some people use "slaked lime" and or "hydrated lime"... Calcium Hydroxide... which breaks into Calcium Carbonate in the presence of Carbon Dioxide..

Again... it also provides Calcium to your plants ... as well as buffering..


Personally... I wouldn't use Sodium BiCarbonate due to the buildup of Sodium over time...


Gypsium can be used to adjust the "hardness" (a measure of Ca/Mg) of your water

Lemons, vinegar and Hydrochloric acid can be used to move pH in the other direction...

"Diggers Hydrochloric Acid" can be bought from Bunnings.... use with care and caution... and very discretely....

1ml in 1000l will move your pH by 0.1....


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '09, 13:14 
Additonally... small applications of Seasol or Maxicrop will provide general trace elements and some phosphorous (not generally needed).... and acts as a general health tonic...

They can also be used as a foliar spray.... "EcoRose" can also be used as a foliar spray, with the added advantage that it is also a remedy for "powdery mildrew"...

A measure of "Chelated Iron" regularly.... takes care of any iron deficiency... probably the most common deficiency in AP...

Hope this helps...


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '09, 13:46 
Forgot to add... Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulphate)... can be used to correct magnesium deficinceis... and will move pH slightly (acidic)... can also provide a "hardness" buffer as well...


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '09, 13:52 
Some people use Sulphate of Potash (Potassium sulphate) for similar reasons... and as a potassium supplement...

Others use Muriate of Potash (Potassium Chloride)... again, continual usage may increase salinity... it's also used as a means of execution, as it stops the heart... for this reason I'm somewhat wary of it... :wink:


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PostPosted: Feb 2nd, '09, 22:55 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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RupertofOZ wrote:
Others use Muriate of Potash (Potassium Chloride)... again, continual usage may increase salinity... it's also used as a means of execution, as it stops the heart... for this reason I'm somewhat wary of it... :wink:


Potassium Chloride is no more toxic than Sodium Chloride, At similar dosage, both can stop the heart. It is all in the dosage.
However that said, I don't think there are any materials that are completely safe to add into a system without some caution. Even water added too much can cause your system to overflow if you know what I mean.

Anyway, back to pH and buffering. Systems tending to go acid is really common. You don't really want to be adjusting your pH all the time though since bouncing the pH around is hard on all living things involved (fish, plants, and bacteria as well as the person constantly having to adjust and test.) Once you have the pH adjusted where you want it, you want to make sure your system has adequate buffering. How much seashells? My system is completely full of them as they are more than 1/3 rd of my grow bed media. My system has never seen a pH below 7.5. My situation is a little overkill but since my top up water is well water that has a normal pH around 8, at least having my system buffered to the hilt keeps me from bouncing the pH too much if heavy top ups or water changes are needed.

Buffering materials
Shell Grit like sold for chickens as a grit and calcium supplement is usually easily gotten and already ground to make more surface area available for buffering. You want your buffering materials placed where water has to flow through them. Simply placing a bag of them in the fish tank might not really get the acidic water filtered through them enough to really buffer your whole system. Some people place a basket or something with the shells at the inlets to grow beds or where water enters the fish tank so the water has to flow through it to get where it's going.
So......
Shells
Shell grit
Limestone
Marble
those are all materials that will dissolve and buffer pH, the limestone and marble might tend to buffer too high so use carefully.

On the other side of things, adjusting pH down. Vinegar, lemon juice, acid etc might work to adjust the pH down but in my experience, it is usually not going to be a good thing to do. Problem is, vinegar and lemon juice are organic and quick to break down so the effects are usually short and simply result in bouncing the pH. More important would be to figure out why the pH is so high.
Usual 3 reasons...
1-hard well water
2-media
3-algae

If hard water is the reason, then once the system is cycled, the pH is likely to drop and needs buffering anyway so don't panic. (Be aware that water right out of the tap is likely to show a lower pH than the true pH of the water so let the water air out before testing the pH.)

Sometimes people use gravel that has a strong effect on the pH of their system. Limestone or Marble are two common examples of media that can cause high pH. If this is the problem, adjusting the pH with acids will only waste your time and dissolve your media slowly.

If Algae is the reason the pH is low or high (algae can cause pH to be really low in the early morning due to a lack of O2 in the water and an abundance of CO2 while come late afternoon it will have used up the CO2 and be producing O2 causing the pH to be high) rather than trying to adjust pH that is doing weird things due to algae, one is better off shading the tank and where ever else lots of water is in the sun.


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PostPosted: Feb 22nd, '09, 00:03 
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Here is a good article on PH as it affects fish:

http://www.firsttankguide.net/ph.php

I have heard that you don't have to worry about high PH unless you have a lot of ammonia in the system. I believe the high Ph then increases ammonia uptake but am not sure.

In my aquarium, I am dealing with high PH (no ammonia) with some deadwood from the backyard.


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PostPosted: Feb 22nd, '09, 04:56 
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The only problems with high ph, aside from the ammonia problem, is that most of the plants grown in a AP system prefer a lower ph, at higher ph there tends to be nutrient lockout.
Basically the system has to be a compromise. If a system can buffer between mid to low 7's that is about as good as it gets :)
If it buffers anywhere else (and sometimes it seems to have a mind of its own) you just have to be aware of the potential problems.
As TC said algae is a variable and we don't need it, well not in large quantities as you always have some.


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PostPosted: Feb 23rd, '09, 15:52 
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our medium is maidenwell which has ph tendancies of around 5.8. We have a permanent supply of shell grit in the sump, this way the grit gets a little stir up. We also use bicarb soda or a purchased product which ever we can afford at the time of need.

We aim our ph for high 6, this way the plants love it and the trout survive happily at this rate.


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PostPosted: Feb 23rd, '09, 16:55 
Be careful with repeated use of Bicarb of Soda... over time you'll add a lot of Sodium to your system...

For short term adjustments,... and a bonus potassium supplementation... why not use EcoRose... Potassium BiCarbonate....

You should also be able to source it in bulk (natural form) from specialty winemakers shops...

A tablespoon will move the pH about 0.2 in a 1500L tank ... overnight...


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PostPosted: Feb 23rd, '09, 17:09 
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My ph is buffered by my gravel at 7.8 and gets as bad as 8 when the system is salted I believe due to the added gravel erosion the salt causes. I would like to get it closer to 7 as 6.5 is optimum for hydroponics. I wish i could find a long term solution that didn't include changing half my gravel or waiting for my system to mature :?


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PostPosted: Feb 23rd, '09, 17:14 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Fish Fingers wrote:
My ph is buffered by my gravel at 7.8 and gets as bad as 8 when the system is salted I believe due to the added gravel erosion the salt causes. I would like to get it closer to 7 as 6.5 is optimum for hydroponics. I wish i could find a long term solution that didn't include changing half my gravel or waiting for my system to mature :?


I have a similar problem. When I introduced a new bed and didn't wash it :oops: I know, I know, :oops: it has buffered my system ever since. Not to mention clouding my water for a phenomenally long time.
Some ppl here advocate not washing, cos there's goodies and trace elements in the fines... I would wash next time for sure.

If you're water is really hard due to gravel buffering (as it should be imho) you could pour acid into the offending GB I think, but don't take my word for this, as there may be other side-effects that aren't nice.


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PostPosted: Feb 23rd, '09, 17:19 
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if i pour 50ml of hydrochloric acid in my ph drops considerably and after about 6 hours im back where i started. Acid does nothing long term but swing the ph for the fish. I think i have some limestone in this mix and i guess it may get better over time. At least its under 8 now i removed half the salt and the plants are doing well so everything else must be ok. I just keep up the iron and seasol.


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