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PostPosted: Jan 19th, '09, 23:37 
To each their own... just makes more sense to me ... to apply "intellectual answers to faith issues" ..... than to apply "faith answers to intellectual issues".... :wink:

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my point is that these were ancient stories prior to them being written stories.


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So isn't it conceivable that all these newly formed people groups (after the scattering) had the same story?


Too true Tony.... but a very narrow filtered view of humanity and history.... the point is/was... that such stories of "the flood" etc.... exist in many, many cultures and diverse ethnic populations spread around the world, many pre-date any "written" lore... and many pre-date even the earliest references to "biblical" lore....

The Chinese, Egyptions, Aztecs, Mayans, Australian Aboriginals, Polynesians etc etc....

Perhaps in our usual "caucasion-centric" view... we might be missing the point....

That our religious lore is perhaps founded on verbal folk lore of races and cultures that existed while we were still grunting around a camp fire in a dark cave....

And not only predates, but predicates an oral history that has been past on through the age of mankind...

Driven by the quest for answers to the unknown....

Just a real pity that in the short period of 2000 years... we have totally institutionalised, bastardised, sanitised... and at times censored, reviewed and distorted the fundamental lore that has been past down for millenia....

All in supposedly in the name of "religion"... but almost always in reality in the name of power, benefit and control...

And "unquestioning belief"... faith... is the ultimate control of a population...

If there is, or will be "the one"... to arise... he/she will only do so... because of "unquestioning faith".... but IMO... (as Cyara herself says).... you can be damn sure that there will be a very strict "control" imposed on not only the "believers" but even more so those that don't believe...

Sorry ... but I for one ... WILL NOT follow such a madman


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PostPosted: Jan 20th, '09, 02:23 
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Science is unearthing and describing much more interesting information about the world, where it came from, where the beasts of the field etc. came from than the Bible does. The Bible's creation story is scanty in comparison. In geological history there are amazing stories of planets colliding, continents moving and shifting, animals and plants being isolated for millions of years and developing weird new forms, red seas before stromatolites put oxygen in the air, ice cube Earth, The Great Dying, dinosaurs, etc. etc. With science we can get a much more accurate picture of early movements of people through genetic analysis, etc. instead of guessing which myth is more plausible.

The other night I was telling my son about how the particles that make up our bodies are 13 billion years old and came from exploding stars, now that's a story!


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PostPosted: Jan 20th, '09, 02:29 
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spot on roz.


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PostPosted: Jan 20th, '09, 03:00 
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You will love this story then: http://churchofcriticalthinking.org/planetx.html


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PostPosted: Jan 20th, '09, 03:17 
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And this one: http://vodpod.com/watch/472110-your-world-is-changing-232


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PostPosted: Jan 20th, '09, 20:27 
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Many opinions being thrown about....... :D

Rupe yours particularly caught my attention. I like your honesty but wonder at your conclusions. You have always struck me as a highly intelligent individual .....but your views on spiritual matters seem to be more based on a narrow-minded and somewhat aggressive prejudice.... pre-judging.... than accurate information. So I will accept the intended challenge to what I believe. :D :cheers: But first I wish to say that whatever our differences in outlook the honesty with which you write is appreciated. My only interest is in probing for the truth...... something less flimsy than common opinion.... the mess this world is in today is the result of decisions based on common opinion. There was a time that the common opinion in the USA was founded on the Bible. Better times. This is no longer so. Sadly IMO.

RupertofOZ wrote:
To each their own... just makes more sense to me ... to apply "intellectual answers to faith issues" ..... than to apply "faith answers to intellectual issues".... :wink:

Faith is merely belief in action. You, yourself, exercise faith when you sit down on a chair without carefully checking... each time.... that it will hold you. Your belief that it will not collapse gives action to a trusting relaxation upon the seat.

Faith in spiritual terms is a confidence in the love of God toward me. Trust. Because I trust His love I can move forward as He asks. There is no intellectual deficiency involved as you suggest. Trust is proven time and again and confidence is built; as with any relationship. It is not some strange unreasoning pastime you speak of. :D Your division between faith and reasoned thought is not built on an understanding of how faith works. It is like air and water…. Both are needed in life. If you cannot put faith/trust in anything you will malfunction. Intellectual processing and faith are not mutually exclusive. A strangely common misconception. Honest scientific critique requires a full understanding before discarding so disrespectfully. :flower:

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So isn't it conceivable that all these newly formed people groups (after the scattering) had the same story?

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Too true Tony.... but a very narrow filtered view of humanity and history.... the point is/was... that such stories of "the flood" etc.... exist in many, many cultures and diverse ethnic populations spread around the world, many pre-date any "written" lore... and many pre-date even the earliest references to "biblical" lore....

You would need to do more than claim this Rupe. You seem to make many claims about "religion" quite easily and I wonder where you get your information. :D Where has it been recorded to predate the earliest Biblical lore? Interested to know.

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The Chinese, Egyptions, Aztecs, Mayans, Australian Aboriginals, Polynesians etc etc....

How would you prove to me that the Israelites did not have writing before all these cultures? Remember that the Egyptians of today are Arabs. The Egyptions in early Biblical history were Coptics. A very different nation. Those pyramids were not built by today's Arab ancestors.

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Perhaps in our usual "caucasion-centric" view... we might be missing the point....

The Bible is not “caucasion-centric” in any way at all. The views expressed that you are disagreeing with are those found in the Bible. This is Middle Eastern in perspective.

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And "unquestioning belief"... faith... is the ultimate control of a population...

Hmmmm..... :D "Unquestioning belief".... :D Again your hyposthesis.... and error.

It also seems to pass you by that you have a very set belief system in place yourself. When I consider what you write over time I see that what you put forward gives me no answers to what is shaping in the world today. It is a kind of blind faith that everything will be OK.... despite evidence to the contrary.....and seems based on a presumption that you will have all the ease of choice that you currently have. This belief-system you adhere to also doesn't seem to be willing to recognise how much your choices are already being shaped for you. Your views are common to many. A product of the times and culture.... as evidenced here. I just hear cultural conditioning over and over again. (Can you handle my honesty too? .... without anger and only reasoning? :flower: )

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If there is, or will be "the one"... to arise... he/she will only do so... because of "unquestioning faith".... but IMO... (as Cyara herself says).... you can be damn sure that there will be a very strict "control" imposed on not only the "believers" but even more so those that don't believe...

Expect it Rupe. The controls are already in evidence. And already we are more entangled than is comfortable. What I actually said is that those controls will be for everyone who does not fit the pattern set. Believers are a given.
BTW..... He will not arise because of "unquestioning faith".... He will arise because it is prophetically promised in the Bible. Whether you believe it or not is of no consequence to what is already shaping in preparation. Prophecy is being fulfilled daily at an astonishling rate.

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Sorry ... but I for one ... WILL NOT follow such a madman

Glad to hear it! :D It will take courage to maintain that stand. The prophetic warnings in the Bible are clear. Those warnings are ours to accept or reject. Free choice. :flower:

In the end it is not opinion that counts....... but truth. I could have the opinion that gravity will not affect me should I decide to walk off a high-rise... but the truth is it will operate regardless of my opinion. If I say there is no God it doesn't make Him disappear.

I read responses here....and get mostly - but not all - off-the-cuffl opinion... :D (good thing this is just cyberspace!!! LOL. Not that my perspective changes in real-time discussion anyway) ....nothing worth buying into.... no real answers.

We all have a "religion"... a set of beliefs which we act upon.
For some it is survival of the fittest... for others be kind to the weak.
For some it is every man for himself.... for others it is the perspective that to give your life for another is no greater act of love.
For some it is I will live for me and those I care about.... for others it is I will live for God and those He cares about.

Our "religion" comes very clear as we speak for as the Bible says.... out of the fullness of the heart the mouth speaks.


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PostPosted: Jan 20th, '09, 22:07 
Ahh... I love a good debate... and religion is a subject of good debate... as is politics...

And how oft the twain doth meet...

I will respond to your points Cyara... in time... firstly by constructing a word document to do so before I post...

Bear with me.... my search for "spiritualism" is one that began in my teenage years... and not one that has been adhoc...

But it has been done with much research, both within a "religious" context, a "philosophical" context and more importantly within an "historical" context... and not one limited to only a "western" caucasian construct... or to a western "bible"... :wink:

I do believe in a "collective consciousness" and basic tenemants of morality and ethics Cyara....

I just can not believe in what passes for "churches" and "religions" in the modern world....

They are an hippocracy, a contradiction and often a complete juxtaposition of the basic tenaments that they so often loudly proclaim IMO...

More to come...

But as a basic question Cyara... which "faith", "religion" and version of a "bible" do you follow... :wink:

And what makes you believe in the righteousness of your choice over and above a true and devout follower of Muhhamed, Shiva, Buddha etc etc...

Therein lies a fundamental difference in starting point between us I believe...


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PostPosted: Jan 21st, '09, 01:15 
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They are an hippocracy, a contradiction and often a complete juxtaposition of the basic tenaments that they so often loudly proclaim IMO


I think that statement apply across the board. Not only to religion, but scientist and all personal beliefs that most people claim; what ever they may be. Its not solely a religious thing. Everyone over here claims they are a patriot of our freedoms, but rarely even one on a million would actually go so far as to be inconvenienced in their life to defend anything, much less give their life to it. "Faith", or "science", and "culture" have the same ailments of being hypocritic.


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PostPosted: Jan 21st, '09, 02:46 
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I look forward to it Rupe… :D

Why do I believe as I do? I was a real seeker and looked into many ideas too. I was as scornful as you! I think with regret of one girl at school with me. I gave her such a hard time for her “Christianity”. I wanted nothing to do with such weird stuff. Looked like emotional nonsense to me. She was so new to it all with no answers beyond the wonderful assurance that she had found what her heart had been searching for. I wish I could tell her today that I understand!!!

So why I believe the way I do…..

Because I have entered into a relationship with a God Who really loves me…… a relationship that has given answer to all I was seeking for. It is the greatest love story of all time.

I have a peace that passes understanding.

When I need help my prayers are answered.

The strange shaping of our political and economic world has no answer but what I find in the Bible.

Every other “religion” offered to me is about “good works to get to heaven”. I must stand before each one of their gods and show my righteousness in order to be let in. Christianity is the only way that shows I can’t achieve enough good works. The ten commandments clearly set the standard of a Holy God and I would be dumb not to see I don’t measure up! Fail in one and you fail in all the Law. So Jesus Christ fulfilled the law for me. As Judge he declares me unrighteous. And that those who sin must die. But then He satisfies His Nature (Love) and comes down and stands in the dock instead of me and declares He will take my death sentence instead. And He did. Only love kept Him on that cross. Every other religion says I must earn it… or keep coming back again… God forbid! …….. until I get better and better at being perfect. I have no confidence I would ever make it! :D

I could give you many more reasons………

We can wrangle over your opinion of my Scriptures …your question about which version I use gives me insight in the direction you are going …..... or the hypocrisy in the Church……no fight from me…..I do not think I live anywhere near a perfect life myself!...... but you can have no answer to my personal experience of the Love of Christ. Too many wonderful things have happened! LOL He really loves me, and it is a tender and consistant love I can no longer do without. Even if there were no heaven to gain I still would serve Him. All so simple……. it would take a theologian to make it hard to understand! :D


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PostPosted: Jan 21st, '09, 06:40 
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I don't see how science can be hypocritical DDM, meaning information that has been sussed out through the scientific method, meaning reproducible physical results.

For science to be hypocritical it would be like claiming things fall up when we can measure and see that they fall the other way. There is a possibility and an actual encouragement of calling bullshit on things ("in good faith", assuming you're not pursuing a disinformation campaign because you are a tobacco or oil company) whereas this activity is actively, vehemently discouraged when it comes to religion.


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PostPosted: Jan 21st, '09, 13:12 
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I think DDM is referring to the dishonesty used in science to get the desired results. Take carbon dating for instance.....

"Most people think carbon dating can be used to establish the age of anything old. They believe every artifact dug up or discovered by archeologists, anthropologists, geologists, or other scientists can have its age accurately determined, within a narrow range, by carbon dating. But is that the truth? Let’s look at carbon-14 dating to discover just how accurate and reliable it really is.

Just what is carbon dating?

First, it is based on the ratio of two elements—carbon 12 (C-12) to carbon 14 (C-14)—found in a sample of the object being dated. The ratio of C-12 to C-14 is approximately 1 billion to one in today’s atmosphere. All living things, directly or indirectly, absorb carbon from the atmosphere. The carbon absorbed is both C-12 and C-14 and it is absorbed at the same ratio as it exists in the atmosphere.

Once a living thing dies, it stops absorbing both C-12 and C-14.

Notice that something must have been alive to absorb C-12 and C-14. Therefore it is not possible to date inorganic material. Anything that was never alive cannot be dated using carbon dating methods. References to carbon dating of rocks, for example, are inaccurate since rocks were never alive.

A basic quality of C-12, the most prevalent form of carbon, is stability—it doesn’t change. C-14, however, is unstable and begins changing immediately after it is formed. Each C-14 atom will lose an electron from the nucleus. The process of losing electrons is referred to as decay. The rate of decay is considered constant and measurable, and is expressed by the term “half life.”

Half life can be understood, for our purpose, by thinking of a block of ice. Our block weighs 10 pounds and begins to melt. The time it takes to melt until it weighs only 5 pounds (half the original weight) is called its “half life.” For this example, let’s say the ice takes five hours to melt from 10 pounds down to 5 pounds. The half life would be five hours. This is not exactly the way C-14 acts, but it serves our purpose.

Unlike ice melting, the half life of carbon and other unstable elements is constant. In other words, if it takes 5,730 years for 10 pounds of C-14 to decay to only 5 pounds, it would also take 5,730 years for 5 pounds to become 2.5 pounds. No matter how much you start with, it will take the same amount of time to reduce it to half, hence the term half life.

C-14 has a half life of 5,730 years. If you begin with 100 pounds of C-14, it would take 5,730 years until there would only be 50 pounds left. It would take an additional 5,730 years for the 50 pounds to decay to only 25 pounds, and so on, halving the amount of C-14 every 5,730 years.

When C-14 is formed, it begins to break down into nitrogen as it loses an electron from the nucleus. If you know how much C-14 something contained to begin with, you can determine how long it has been decaying by measuring how much C-14 is left.

So here is how it works. A piece of wood is tested to see just how long ago the tree died. The C-14 is measured and compared to the amount assumed to have been present when it was alive. If there is half as much C-14 as estimated when it was alive, it is said to have been 5,730 years since it died.

Now, this is based on “knowing” how much C-14 is in the atmosphere when a sample is alive. How could scientists know how much C-14 was being absorbed 10,000 years ago? This is one of the difficulties for those relying on carbon dating.

C-14 is constantly being produced when cosmic rays strike the upper atmosphere. Cosmic rays hit gasses in the upper atmosphere and knock off neutrons. Some of the neutrons react with the nitrogen-14 near them and form carbon-14 and an extra (free) proton. Remember, once C-14 is produced, it immediately begins to decay, so C-14 is decaying at the same time it is being made. When the production rate and the decay rate are equal, the amount of C-14 will be constant. This is called equilibrium.

It is possible to measure the rate of production and the rate of decay quite accurately. Therefore, it is possible to determine how long it would take for the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere to become constant starting from a point in time when there is not any C-14 at all present.

It would take 30,000 to 50,000 years to go from zero C-14 until equilibrium is reached. Since scientists accept the concept of evolution, they conclude that the atmosphere is millions of years old. Since C-14 equilibrium would certainly have been reached in the first 50,000 years, it is assumed to have already happened millions of years ago.

When carbon-14 dating was first utilized, it was based on the idea that the amount of C-14 was, in fact, stable and unchanging and, therefore, the ratio between C-12 and C-14 was thought to be constant. But in the 1960s, research proved this to be incorrect. It was discovered that C-14 equilibrium had not yet been reached. In fact, it was estimated that the formation rate of C-14 was 30 percent greater than the decay rate, meaning the amount of C-14 in the atmosphere is increasing.

What was the solution for scientists to be able to continue using carbon-14 dating? They set the year of 1950 as a standard. Deciding to use the ratio of C-12 to C-14 present in that year, they considered it to be the point of equilibrium.

Further steps were needed since even this point of reference did not produce ages for material complementary to evolutionist thinking. So, scientists produced “correction tables.” When something is tested and carbon-14 dating doesn’t give the age scientists like, they apply these correction tables and change the age to match predetermined estimates of the sample’s age.

Then there is another remedy used in science to resolve conflicts with carbon-14 dating and preconceived notions: They simply don’t include the carbon-14 dating results. If a sample is “thought” to be 32,500 years old and carbon-14 dating suggests it is only 4,000 years old, the carbon-14 dating data is simply dropped from the records. In the proceedings of a symposium on radiocarbon variations and absolute chronology held in Sweden in 1969, two researchers from the University of Uppsala introduced their report with these words: “C-14 was being discussed at a symposium on the prehistory of the Nile Valley. A famous American colleague, Professor Brew, briefly summarized a common attitude among archaeologists toward it as follows: ‘If a C-14 date supports our theories, we put it in the main text. If it does not entirely contradict them, we put it in a footnote. And if it is completely out of date, we just drop it’” (T. Säve-Söderbergh and Ingrid U. Olsson, Proceedings of the Twelfth Nobel Symposium). Just like that, the conflict is resolved.

To review, the concept of carbon dating is based on the fallacy of a constant amount of C-14 in the atmosphere, and the fallacy of a constant ratio between C-12 and C-14. When the problems of C-14 amounts not being constant were discovered, scientists decided to use the amount in the atmosphere in 1950 as a standard; and when the dates still don’t match the assumptions of the scientists, they apply a “correction table” to make them match. And if, after all of these “adjustments” are made, a carbon date still doesn’t match the ideas of the scientist, the carbon dating data is simply ignored.

To see how this looks in a real application, we can examine the example of what scientists call Cro-Magnon man. According to scientists, Cro-Magnon footprints found in France’s Chauvet Cave four years ago are estimated to be about 26,000 years old. The estimate is based on carbon dating of the soot from torches on the cave ceiling. The test shows about 2-3 percent of the C-14 present in the soot as would have been present in 1950 (the standard year). Since it would take about 26,000 years for the C-14 to decay that far, the age is set at 26,000 years old.

But, because we know C-14 is not in a state of equilibrium (stable), it is necessary to “estimate” what it would have been in the past. If we use the current growth rate of C-14 in the atmosphere and calculate back from there, we find it actually may have been only 4,000 years ago that the 2-3 percent figure would have been true. Here is why.

We can calculate backward how much C-14 was in the atmosphere last year, and 100 years ago, 1,000 years ago and so on. Since about 4,000 years ago there would only be about 19 percent as much C-14 in the atmosphere as the standard year of 1950, the wood the soot comes from would only have absorbed 19 percent as much C-14 as expected. Then, knowing the half-life/decay rate, we can calculate the 2-3 percent figure to be all that would be left today.

So the footprints of Cro-Magnon man, considered by evolutionists to be 26,000 years old, may well be only 4,000 years old. Of course, most scientists simply reject such figures.

It comes back to one of the center-planks of modern science, evolution. Anything that does not support evolution is considered wrong, and no further questions are tolerated.

The Bible teaches us that Adam and Eve chose to make decisions for themselves when they took from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Gen. 3). This means they and their offspring would create a pool of knowledge based on their own thinking and reasoning without the input of God. Since that time, that is exactly what mankind has done.

Modern science is founded upon a rejection of divine revelation and exultation of knowledge based on the corrupt human mind. Man has been living about 6,000 years cut off from the only source of true knowledge, the Creator God. Since man chooses to rely on his own understanding, he is bound by the limits of his carnal mind. Mankind as a whole will continue, for a little while longer, to swim in the stagnant pool of ignorance produced without God’s guiding influence. But this state of ignorance is temporary.

In the near future, God will intervene in events on this Earth. He will cause people to realize that, without God, all human thinking is faulty. God will show the world that He is the Creator of everything and only His way of thinking and living will lead to understanding and truth. Then, for the first time in 6,000 years, all mankind will begin to acquire accurate knowledge (Isa. 11:9). " Mark Nash
http://www.thetrumpet.com/index.php?page=article&id=726


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PostPosted: Jan 21st, '09, 13:43 
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So we should ignore all science because it "knowledge based on the corrupt human mind".

Damn, all my "thinking has been faulty". Whats the point in doing anything then? May as well just give up and wait till some all mighty creator comes to tell me how to acquire accurate knowledge.

To me, this is extremely negative...............


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PostPosted: Jan 21st, '09, 16:53 
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Hardly what was said EB! Not a scientific response.

Aaah! :D I get it.....

Let's never challenge science or scientific results because then we are being negetive!

Let's decide on the positive result we want and arrange the facts fit!!!

Exactly the problem.....


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PostPosted: Jan 21st, '09, 17:27 
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Modern science is founded upon a rejection of divine revelation and exultation of knowledge based on the corrupt human mind. Man has been living about 6,000 years cut off from the only source of true knowledge, the Creator God. Since man chooses to rely on his own understanding, he is bound by the limits of his carnal mind. Mankind as a whole will continue, for a little while longer, to swim in the stagnant pool of ignorance produced without God’s guiding influence. But this state of ignorance is temporary.

In the near future, God will intervene in events on this Earth. He will cause people to realize that, without God, all human thinking is faulty. God will show the world that He is the Creator of everything and only His way of thinking and living will lead to understanding and truth. Then, for the first time in 6,000 years, all mankind will begin to acquire accurate knowledge (Isa. 11:9). " Mark Nash


:shock:


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PostPosted: Jan 21st, '09, 17:55 
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Glad you read it through EB! :D

True science is founded on the understanding that there is a Creator. There are those I admire who do not discount the Creator in their scientific searching. More trustworthy results.

Quotes of Einstein:
To what extent are you influenced by Christianity? "As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene."
You accept the historical existence of Jesus? "Unquestionably! No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life."
Do you believe in God?"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

"There are people who say there is no God," Einstein told a friend. "But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views."

"The fanatical atheists," he wrote in a letter, "are like slaves who are still feeling the weight of their chains which they have thrown off after hard struggle. They are creatures who--in their grudge against traditional religion as the 'opium of the masses'-- cannot hear the music of the spheres."

"Science can be created only by those who are thoroughly imbued with the aspiration toward truth and understanding," he said. "This source of feeling, however, springs from the sphere of religion." The talk got front-page news coverage, and his pithy conclusion became famous. "The situation may be expressed by an image: science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."


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