Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Suppose you have 2 resevoirs, one below the plant/growbed level, containing the fish etc, while another resevoir was located well above that, while a simple foot pump, an exersize bicycle linked pump, or even a bucket with a strainer on top, could be used to fill the upper resevoir.

The water could then trickle from the upper resevoir through the growbeds to the bottom one, possibly regulated by a tilting tube that took 45 minutes to fill and tilt thus emptying its water and nutrients onto the growbeds on a regular 45 minutely basis. If the upper resevoir was large enough, and the water to plant ratio high enough, one could concievably have enough water in the upper resevoir to last for a full 24 hour cycle while still having enough water in the lower resevoir to keep fish happy and healthy. The water trickle would hopefully oxygenate the water enough to support the fishes.

If you were feeling higher tech, you could also have a pump with an outflow pipe at the minimum water level of the lower resevoir but linked up to a solar panel and/or wind generator, which would be operating continuously thus that human power would be the backup/topup should conventional renewables fail.

Has anyone tried this? Are there any glaring holes in this proposition?
And do you like the fact that we also "Have" to do exersize, thus making us healthier in the process?

[quote="feintstar"]Suppose you have 2 resevoirs, one below the plant/growbed level, containing the fish etc, while another resevoir was located well above that, while a simple foot pump, an exersize bicycle linked pump, The water trickle would hopefully oxygenate the water enough to support the fishes.

[quote]

i have considered this in case of a power out, due to cyclones excellent idea, like going back to Jilligan's Island

I'm toying with the idea of having a header tank for a NFT system. When the GB's are filled it first pumps water into the holding tank then overflow goes into the GB's. Over the next day the water slowly drains through the NFT into the FT. If there is a power outage you can still have the water returning to the FT for DO and the NFT plants still have there water.

there is some extensive discussion on the subject of human powered pumps on Chelle's thread:
viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4095&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
you can find a lot of interesting links there too

but here's another idea for "small" systems:
suppose you had two buckets hanging on a sturdy stand
connected to each other with a rope and 2 pulleys
two flexible hoses connect each bucket to the growbeds:
one from the bottom of the bucket to the fish tank, just above water level
one at the top of the bucket to the growbed (or rather from the growbed drain to the top of the bucket, to indicate water flow direction)

then you could alternatively haul the full one one up and lower the empty one down
a simple hook on the stand could automatically click under the bucket handle to keep the full one up

each bucket would alternatively serve as sump and as header tank
you could use your own body weight for pulling them up, so that would be easy and quick

even for bigger volumes that would be doable, but then you would need some kind of winch or a hydraulic system

you could even have a series of these buckets connected to two manifolds so you can spread your interventions and do something more interesting in the intervals

frank

sorry for posting twice, but wanted to add some details and still keep it all together:

here's my idea for "small" systems or for developing countries:
suppose you had two buckets hanging on a sturdy stand
connected to each other with a rope and 2 pulleys
two flexible hoses connect each bucket to the growbeds and to the fish tank (which would have to be above ground):
one from the bottom of the bucket to the fish tank, just above water level
one at the top of the bucket to the growbed (or rather from the growbed drain to the top of the bucket, to indicate water flow direction)

then you could alternatively haul the full one one up meanwhile lowering the empty one down
a simple hook on the stand could automatically click under the bucket handle to keep the full one up

each bucket would alternatively serve as sump and as header tank

you could use your own body weight for pulling the full ones up, so that would be easy and quick

even for bigger volumes that would be doable, but then you would need some kind of winch or a hydraulic system

you could even have a series of these buckets flexibly connected to two manifolds so you can spread your interventions and do something more interesting in the intervals

it is also a possible backup solution for your pump in case of power failure

more complicated, but doable would be to have this system function as your pump by driving it with an electric motor
would make a very efficient pump as it is positive displacement

manual actuation would still stay possible

be fun to watch too

frank

An interesting tweak on a standard CHIFT PIST system. It would mean that you would have to have a Top Tank large enough to carry ALL the water needs of the top GB throughout the 24 hours…. not impossible……and I would use a Sump at the bottom rather than the Fish Pond….

The TOP TANK water is then filled once in 24 hours…. need a strong and rapid pump - or strong pedal power! - if a big system….. and over 24 hours it leaks into the first GB - time and again -until emptied…. A flout kicks in for rapid exiting of GB water to draw oxygen into the system… and give enough time for the plants before the slow leaking from above tops it up again. Only the top GB would be filled like this if built in series..... so more water hungry plants perhaps put here cos always filling.

If done in series…. more than one set of GBs to FTs…. then normal CHIFT PIST continues down the hill…. or gradient created… It would only be the first GB that would be slow in filling because CHIFT PIST would ensure that a Fish Tank would exit water normally through the SLO (Solids Removing Overflow) to the next GB in series… on down. Then the cycle would wait until the trickle fed top GB is filled again and the cycle would repeat itself.

Everything ends up in the Sump… so Sump must be as large as Top Tank because pumping only begins again when Top Tank is dry….. hopefully tweaked so that that takes 24 hours.

With only one pumping a day it can be the early morning exercise to pedal power the water all back up to the top! ..... very early morning if a hot summer! Can't believe how hot it is now... and only Spring.

Top Tank and Sump are going to have to be big enough to carry enough water for all the AP cycles required for a 24 hour period….. that is the possible drawback…. But I do admit to loving the concept. It is basically stored energy up top where you need it. Frank should just love that! No vulnerability to power cuts…. Only one time of the day needed for power and anyone could pedal for an hour a day! Always hoping it is only one hour a day … of course!

It could also be designed to work over 12 hours to bring Top Tank and Sump tank sizes down to half. If the system was not cycling at night.... in winter say.... to keep heat banked instead of dissipated with cold night air in GBs.....this would be good. Summer might need cycling to bring temps down of course.

A very interesting idea!

Excellent analysis, Chelle
indeed I lllove it

and your analysis of Feinstar's system possibilities is almost perfect too

except on one detail:
sump must not be as big as the top tank
sump can even be rather small as it must at maximum only be able to contain your batch volume
(batch volume as opposed to day volume or 12 hr volume or, for that matter, 1 hour volume, depending on how often you want to exercise )
it could even be smaller than your individual fish tanks
but I would advise never smaller than the water contents of one set of growbeds lest it should overflow.

Top tank can be as big as you want and can hold fishes
as long as it is a VHMHIFT (Variable Height Minimal Height In Fish Tank) tank
which in fact every CHIFT tank that can hold some extra volume is, unless it is equipped with an overflow at the Constant Height level
and as long as the volume of the tank above the Constant Height level allows for topping up the tank with your batch volume
I guess that would make it a MH+BHIFT (Minimal Height + Batch Height In Fish Tank) tank
If your top tank surface is large, that would mean only small level fluctuations

So, in this setup, you can pump up your batch volume to "top up" the top tank at regular intervals
and with adjusting of the solids lifting overflow drain output flow, try to spread draining as much as possible over the chosen time till you step on your bicycle again (or your pump kicks in, either by a timer, or by a level switch)

It even wouldn't probably matter very much if the draining would happen a little faster than the proposed time: neither fish nor plants would suffer from a limited time when the system is not exactly coordinated if these moments would be limited to once a day. I even think that would be really flexible.

you could easily first finish writing a post (or a poem for that matter) instead of having to run to your bicycle at the exact hour.

BTW you can have floating rafts in your sump too if you exploit all passive oxygenation possibilities
and if these were limited to drop to a certain height by stoppers, you would get root aeration each time you empty your sump to below that level

electrical pump capacity can still be limited to just over top tank drain flow rate.

... we are getting nearer and nearer to the "crème de la crème" solution for your setup

and a lot of these ideas can be applied elsewhere too.

I would copy these last posts to your thread for further reference

and subscribe to the "best thread" contest if I were you.
je zou dat winnen met de vingers in de neus (flemish expression)

hear the champagne bottles pop


Frank

I understood FS to mean to exercise .... or pump...only ONCE in 24 hours Frank .... the sump would overflow if not the same size as the Top Tank. When the Top Tank is empty it is time to pedal .... or whatever! ... all that water back to the top!

If the water must drain in 12 hours with no AP cycling at night then have a valve to adjust amount to trickle into first bed... faster or slower.

If a GB was the size that held 5,000 litres of WATER when full....and we wanted 12 cycles through the day that would be 60,000 litres needed in the top tank to be trickle fed over the day. (Cycles would have to be 2 hourly if to go over 24 hours...... would 1 cycle every 2 hours be a problem? )

60,000 litres would require a Top Tank of 10m x 3m x 2m.... and the catchment below (the Sump) needs be the same.

10 x 4 x 3 would give 120,000 litres.... and 1 cycle every hour over 24 hours.... Whew! big. And expensive to build.

WOULD ONE CYCLE EVERY 2 HOURS BE TOO LONG IN SUMMER .... summer is hot here.... like in OZ.... I know you know OBO Probably going to say depends on stocking rate of fish too....ammonia levels

I love your idea more and more the longer I think about it FS!

you have not understood that your top tank consists of two "layers" of volume, Chelle:
one bottom layer that is CHIFT, below which level the water NEVER comes, so you are sure that your fish will always have ample water to swim in, and on on top of that room for a second (variable) layer where there is the amount of water you wish to pump around in batches. There is no limit as to the volume of the CHIFT layer: it can be as big as you want. You can freely decide.
Same goes for each next fish tank: the CHIFT volume of the tank you can choose at will.
You need spare room in each fish tankabove the CHIFT volume equal or more than the contents of one set of growbeds to cope with the tsunami: it must be able to catch all water from one set of growbeds quickly and then release it back slowly
This is why I would rather put a separate flout on each growbed instead of one on each set of growbeds: you will have more constant rippling in the water instead of a big surge every now and then, so passively generated DO will be more constant instead of with peaks.

the minimal volume required in your sump is the water contents of one set of growbeds (and that only to to avoid accidents if one day you wish to go rope skipping instead of cycling as then it will certainly overflow.
a better and more advised volume of your sump is the amount of water you wish to pump in a batch.
This can never overflow as there is only so much water pumped up in each batch
even if the flouts of two or more levels of growbeds would decide to kick in at the exact same time this would not happen as then room is created in the following fish tank or in the next set of growbeds.

The number of batches NEEDED per day depends a. on your fish density for water quality and aeration and b. on your daily feed rate for adequate nitrification.
The number of batches WANTED per day is for you to decide: do you wish to pump one a day, twice a day, four times a day...
as said above, the volume NEEDED for your sump is only dependent on the volume per batch as no more water can come down than you have pumped up

There is no need for 12 cycles in a day for the plants: nature does it in two (the tides) or in even less (floods)
in fact I believe that too much cycles will make your plants lazy and not encourage them to root deeply, which will make them much more vulnerable should there be an interval
that is a well known phenomenon in classic gardening: spray your plants when needed but don't spoil them.

So it is not when the variable layer of your top tank is exhausted that you have to jump on your bicycle: you do that best when the batch has cascaded down all the way and your sump is back full, and even then you can most surely wait a couple hours even on a very hot day: there is water in most growbeds (the level may vary from one to another), and the media themselves are wet (gravel, pebbles, sand) or even retain water for a long, long time (perlite, vermiculite, clay pellets, coco and other fibers ...)

but keep in mind that your fish need aeration, so don't exaggerate by taking two days off. As said, it is mainly fish density and daily feed rates that decide about the volume of water to be pumped.

... and calculate whether it is at all possible for you to cope with this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-powered_transport

supposing you weigh 60 kgs that would make you capable of 180 watts in one hour
180 watts will pump maximally 9000 liters to a height of 6 m if your bicycle and pump reach 80% efficiency in that hour

I think you must consider this as an absolute limit if you must do it twice a day
gives you some new figures to start from:
18000 liters/day recirculation rate to calculate fish density and food rates
9000 liters sump tank (or less i.e. 4500 liters if you would exercise 4 times 1/2 hour each day)

and will no doubt keep your figure in perfect shape

ah, the wonders of Excel spreadsheets

we are hijacking this thread, Chelle, luckily mostly on topic

Frank

Sorry FS...

I will answer Frank on my thread and lead back to here for anyone who is interested in your super idea....

No guys, carry on, I'm listening with rapt interest - I fear however I'm not all the familiar with the jargon - I'm not entirely sure what CHIFT PIST actually stands for or represents, but I'm imagining an arrangement with multiple fish tanks and growbeds in series such that the spillover from the fishtanks is what irrigates each of the growbeds - is that about right?

I'm particularly interested in that formidable set of mathematics that scares me greatly - that's why I posted here so someone else could work it out.

I was thinking in terms of a small backyard system, low tech even to the extent of 'pumping' the water to the upper tank using a bucket and a winch. Then you could have a bath tub (upper tank) elevated by say 1.5 meters, use the drain of the bathtub to water the growbeds (+ fishtanks?) in series, all until you get to a wheelie bin, preferably lower down a slope, with the bucket inside that's attatched to a winch that takes the water back to the bathtub level. I'm a guy - I want to get my upper body exersize.


Something I think you should consider here, especially with regard to large and expensive systems - you really are better off using the solar and wind add ons: If the sump has its renewable energy pump on continuously, and there's a mechanical toggle on the top fishtank that allows the cycles to continue regardless of the amount of water up there, then what you've done is effectively stored the solar or wind energy: You get to take advantage of the sun and wind when they are at thier strongest, rather than attempting to use costly energy on a continuous basis.

That means on those boiling Australian and African afternoons, you can relax knowing that your tank is likely filling itself and you don't have to do all that much exersize. You're there to step in to do the remainder, and on cold, still, or overcast conditions, you would have to do the full hour of exersize or whatever.

Is a bathtub big enough for a few square meters of growbeds?

my honest assessment is that if my plants had to rely on me peddling a bike for an hour to top up their water, they'd be dead

Interesting discussion. Recently I saw a pushbike with the a belt replacing the chain and connected to an old pump. Looked like a simple, efficient system using recycled materials. If I visit the place again I'll get a pic.

Can a solar pump be made that doesn't rely on panels and electricity? If the water was stored and released at night, it was save on the need for batteries.

Yes. You have it right. CHIFT PIST stands for Constant Height In Fish Tank... Pump In Sump Tank

Absolutely! Frank's excel spreadsheet showed up the enormous load to move water by pedal power alone! I am also looking at all other forms of alternate power....

In winter it would be fabulous because the Greenhouse... if have it under GH.... I have to cos of monkeys thinking everything I grow is exclusively for them...will be warm and really pleasant in the early morning to pedal away!

I live in the tropics, it's hot all year. Is there some type of solar pump that doesn't rely on electricity? Maybe one that runs off steam?