Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Hi Frank,

It has got a bit muddled.

There was an original design of 4 beds.... 8 cubic meters... with a pond that was 2 x 2 and shallow end 1m and deep end 2m.... equalling 6000 liters. (I originally said 7000 litres but was wrong)

The triple flout design has 5 beds but the Pond is 18,000 litres. This you could not have been expected to know just from a picture. I had increased the Pond size to 6 x 2 and shallow end 1m and deep end 2m..... equalling 18,000 litres. All I did was put up a pic to see what everyone thought of my solution to the different flouts maybe not initiating every cycle.

Another mix up seems to be that everyone takes the size of the GB as the volume of the water passing through... but the volume of water passing through is only 40% of GB size.....because of the grow media. That is why I kept asking earlier what the ratio 2:1 for GB:FT actually meant.

Because it is built CHIFT PIST all that is of concern is the body of water in each unit as it moves down the system........ not all the units in the whole system together. CHIFT PIST is designed to protect Pond levels.... and with one flout exiting all the unit of GBs together this is more easily designed for.....flowing into the Pond and initiating the drain through the SLO or mulitple SLOs (if needed). Displacement above the SLOs can be part of the design. I want to look at each unit on its own and make it the most efficient design.... then replicate it up the hill. Sump and Top Tank are there to maximise efficiency

The volume of the 5 GBs joined in the triple flout design equates to 5 x 1 x.5 which is 10 cubic meters. The body of water passing through would be 40% of this when the growmedia is taken into consideration. With the enlarged Pond size in the 5 GB design treble than that of the 4 bed design, there was a very large body of water to protect against tsunami. However I must admit to wanting to bring it back closer to the 1:1 ratio again because I think that is enough protection and I could get more plant growth out of the space........ so have again been looking at options. I also needed more accessability to the GBs in the 5 GB design too.... will put up what I am now working on when I have thought some stuff through. Probably leave large pond size and increase GBs for each unit instead.

I don't want to save on one tier. I want to fit as many as I can going up the hill. I will just build as I am able. It will start at grass roots level of one unit with an extra Pond above built and used as a top tank... and then of course the sump in place first of all. When this is finished and fully operating ! can then move to the next level. My market can grow too with the growth of the overall system... nicely stage by stage. This gives me the time to really know what I am doing before I go really big. So I am not really looking at it as a big business plan right now.... just a fun hobby that I know will develop along commercial lines when I am ready and able. Everything about the enterprise will be done this way. I want it to never stop being fun.... in the midst of all the hard work!

It will definitely be more expensive for me to raise the beds.... lintels are expensive. I did look into mounlding my own cement beds but the moulds are very expensive too. I suppose I could use shutterboard... but more expense ....Resting the beds on concrete covered landfill is far, far cheaper. What you did not see in my original design was that I had sunken the paths between.... less landfill to find... and can work closer to table height. I prefer to build this way. I am in no way reliant on any external build inputs beyond cement. I have even successfully been using my own river sand from the river bank mixed with smaller stones to make a good concrete. The finishing plaster may be another matter. But I will cover with Cemcrete paint which hardens well and makes a really good seal.

I have started reading the thread about ferro-cement... sure is interesting... still a way to go yet.... will let you know what I think.

Thanks for all your time and trouble Frank. I sure do appreciate it! You have taught me so much.

I myself have learned a lot during the process, Chelle , and it has given me the opportunity to check if my ideas are sound. It is good exercise.
Thank you also for your patience.
Some people get touchy if you suggest that one solution might be better than another and have difficulties with different approaches to theirs.
You, like me, stay awake and open and never take a thing for granted, not even if it is our own idea. Critic eyes are always welcome.

so many, many thanks back

first calculate the actual footprint, growbed surface, amount of media needed, fish tank volume, header tank volume, hen and rabbit surface, before you work further on your drawing and compare them to my results and also compare accessibility.

also consider that a high top tank must be much stronger than a shallow one and increases your pumping height (but you can solve that by more digging into your hill ).

Doing so will further enhance temperature stability, solar performance, stocking of solar energy for use at night or in winter and reduce footprint so you can add the two extra growbeds mentioned in my previous post.

So I would start there and work my way down. It will be much easier to evacuate rubble as each unit is built and lengthening your greenhouse downwards will be easier too than upwards as you will have free access.
Each next fish tank can serve as temporary sump.

A ferrocement mould is very easy and quick to make and would mean substantial savings on cement
and you would only need to build one dismountable one and move it from bed to bed, make the bed, dismantle and move the mould, make the next bed, etc...

here too, working downwards will facilitate things.


Indeed they are, but if you design your mould well and incorporate stiffeners (easy), you wont need any lintels at all

Or you can make an extra mould and cast your own concrete lintels in place

Digging will also be much simpler as you only have to create level surfaces.

Don't do that yourself unless you have a crane and know how to handle it.
You'd be amazed at the enormous amount of dirt a competent crane handler can move in only a few hours to the exact spot you want it for further use.

Finally, this would also greatly facilitate modifications should you wish so later on.

Frank

Digging into my hill.... is digging into ROCK from about 30cm down in most places. I have a TLB here now digging down only a foot to redeem topsoils and rocks. I am going to see how well he does on the AP site after this job is finished... but lots more rock there. The hill orientation and location near the house though is superb.

I will think about this....

And this....

digging will have to be kept to a minimum.... I will be building up from ground level more than digging.

Is delightful how much.... am watching it right now today!

Cyara,
On a totally side note from the system design. Have you started any media pH testing with your handy local gravel? And your local water? I'm interested to know how well your on site materials will work for you.

Back to grow beds. I know this is kinda backwards to the idea of keeping beds at table level but, have you thought about making any of the beds "one big bed" instead of separating them by walls and paths? Granted, if they are really big, you will probably have to place stepping stones in them for walking in and tending/harvesting plants. This would not be good for levels growing say salad greens or any other small fast plants but it might be appropriate for your extra deep "tree level". If you ware working with one really big bed, a single big Flout would be just fine for draining the bed into the sump tank or perhaps even a pond below it.

Hi TCL!
No not as yet.... just too much going on. Not the only project I am doing. I agree that it is important. I am really hoping not to have pH problems with the pebbles cos researched that they are actually chert mixed with dolomite... dolomite is soft and washes away leaving this beautiful pelindaba... which I believe is chert. Have been researching ways to bring pH down in case. My water I already know is very mineral rich...esp calcium..... so alkaline. At least my fish are acclimated to this farm.

I see that plants have best uptake of all nutrients around a slightly acid pH of 6.5. It was Rupe or EKB I think who posted this table below.... Re-posting for ease of ref. I know that a system naturally gravitates over time toward acidity.... that at least is in my favour. I have some "junk" soil that is pink... I could maybe mix in pebbles from that too.... it was delivered here free as landfill but the stones are so pretty I have been using them for a lovely masonry finish to my fireplace. It is important that I get a good test kit asap.

I will be interested to see what you think of my latest design..... just need time to finish it then will post it. All one big bed but have sunken paths intruding from sides for accessibility into big square.... Am now sold on one bed... big.... single triple flout....big pond for thermal protection of fish and large enough to handle inflow. Splash wall to break thrust of water as it exits the flout.

I think I read that you actually made a flout by yourself TCL? Have you posted somewhere about it?

on a commercial system, or one that is intended to grow out as one, both working height and accessibility are absolutely essential, so one big growbed with stepping stones even though much cheaper would probably be out, one exception being a big (long) floor based floating raft system where you pull out the rafts to bring them to working height like in the UVI (University of the Virgin Islands) systems.

Both of these solutions, though obviously cheaper at first sight, would increase footprint as you don't have the room to breed anything (hens, rabbits, worms, MUSHROOMS, or even better BELGIAN chicory, hmmm... yummy or other light fearing produce) underneath the beds.

Just compare the extra cost of raising the beds to having to increase the greenhouse surface to allow for hens, rabbits, worms, MUSHROOMS, or even better BELGIAN chicory, hmmm... yummy or other light fearing produce and all else that is involved with a bigger greenhouse, like extra heating needs, and you will soon see my point. All is about efficiency in a commercial setup.

you can have a raised floating raft system though, but not on a wide surface as that would be a real engineering challenge
The size of the growbeds in Chelle's plan (or in mine ) would be perfectly feasible, just don't put any media in one of the growbeds and you have one floating raft bed

would be nice if only for demonstration of the different possibilities to visitors.

I am not keen on the single flout idea except for one per growbed, as this allows for individual adjustment as to filling speed and filling level (avoiding "wet feet" for plants that don't like this)and there is ample room to have one per growbed. And to the nutrient needs of the plants.
And you would have the possibility of adjusting these parameters to every subsequent crop which might be totally different from the previous one.

While one big flout might not actually harm the fish, a tsunami would certainly disturb them more, hence more stress

tsunamis are not needed for extra aeration in Chelle's wonderful concept.

Of course if you need deeper rooting for certain plants, you can insert a deep root growbed wherever you want
As I would assume the plants grown in these to be perennial and BIG, I would situate them on top so that they don't shade the other plants (unless you would want them to) and you don't have to move them if they do so in an unacceptable way.

as said before (and nobody so far has reacted to this, so I presume it must have gone unnoticed), I would completely abandon the idea of hens or rabbits over the fish tanks as not commercially viable (city people will only remember that your fish eat manure),
and transforming the excrement of hens and rabbits through worms first is much more reassuring concerning food safety and contamination.

I find this an extremely fruitful thread and am thoroughly enjoying it
It would surely win first prize if there was a poll

such a poll might be a good idea since there is no possibility to read all that appears on this great forum, lest you would have no time left for breeding fish and vegetables.

first prize: one week holiday in Holland
second prize: two weeks holiday in Holland
third prize: three weeks holiday in Holland
(this is a joke, and I hope my Dutch friends will not hold it against me )

greetings

Frank

Just remember that below a PH of 6 all your good bacteria will die (rather rapidly and catastrophically), and below PH of 7 they will not multiply anywhere near as quickly as at PH of 8.

Aim to get your system PH at 7 - 7.6, nutrient uptake is fine in this range, and bacteria are happy enough.

LOL.... Holland..... I have heard it is very pretty. I would pick the Seychelles.... lovely islands with long white beaches and big granite rocks... Yip.
Going to insert paths...

Footprint is not so important that I need to grow under the growbeds.... lots of land to build on.

.... I did notice the BELGIAN chicory! LOL I have a place downstairs and indoors for mushrooms one day...

Will have baskets hanging from the Pond sides with media in for young fish to hide and plants on top...

I don't want all that fiddle around.... just one flout

I think they told me they would love it!

Not going to turn away any free aeration... all good

Had it below ....but you are right... will place this tree GB just below the Top Tank.

The hens are not a contamination.... it would be perception alone.... and over the fish is just night quarters anyway.... tractors in the day.

Thanks to people like you.

I will remember that OBO.... can't help but be impressed with the results you are getting.... OUTSTANDING!

I'll put some more photo's up tomorrow, midnight now, been driving since 10am, 4 days since seasol added for the first time in months, 4 inches of growth at least on the tomatoes

Seasol just seems to have that special 'something' that is missing from fish food / waste.

Wonder if we can get something like that here....

You got a site or something that shows the ingredients they put in it?

I have just started a new thread on plants nutrients and micronutrients contents and needs in order to try and concoct an Excel worksheet to better design and exploit an AP system. I am asking for help as my experience is limited to technical matters.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4295



back to Chelle:

Chelle, why don't you invite me to the Sey"chelle"s so I can compare?
We might make it a study trip on the effects of Tsunami's
that is, if we would need an excuse to meet


might be, but greenhouse surface doesn't come cheap, so the best use you make of it... (sorry to seem rude, but you are neglecting my objection)

have you ever even tasted BELGIAN chicory? it is considered as a delicacy (and it truly is) and you would certainly score with it at posh restaurants

wouldn't it be better to concentrate all your produce and keep your house for your own privacy so you can retreat from work whenever you wish to do so?

TMHO is not a reason to drop the idea: there is no fiddling around, there are only advantages as flouts are the simplest and easiest solution.
I was persuaded I had convinced you of dropping your fear for flouts
Apparently I didn't
please don't post an absolutely final decision based on fear of the (apparently) unknown without carefully weighing out the pro's and con's
Nobody as yet has posted a con except for the extra room they need which in your case is irrelevant
so please trust flouts (like you trust me, they are just as reliable )
like all animals most fish hate disturbance and prefer a constant flow whether that is slow or turbulent
They are good swimmers, but the odd Micheal Phelps that masters all disciplines is an exception there too

of course, but you don't need more than the fish need and there are better solutions for extra aeration (i.e. multiple waterfalls) than tsunami's which will disturb them
focusing on a tsunami for aeration would most certainly be a mistake.

indeed it would be mostly perception (except for salmonella which would almost certainly be reduced if you proceed over worms)
And in commercial matters, all that counts is perception.
I am a relatively good salesman (maybe you noticed) and if I believe in an item, I can sell it and I will go for it
But that doesn't put me in the category of "best" salesmen who succeed in turning perception to their favor even for the vilest product
I could not do that.
So I am "only" good, not exceptional at sales.

from a commercial point of view, one silly little mistake can ruin your reputation for years, if not for forever
don't fool around with this
better to be safe than sorry

and, most important: what would be your benefit if you would locate the hens over the fish tanks?
Foot print? not really:
That would have to be either only at night like you presume (but reconsider: would you expect them to sleep there? in such humid circumstances?) or during only part of the day
still, do you expect the hens and rabbits to hold up their poop till they are over the fish tanks?

and it would block or at least impede your access to the fish in the tanks

and what about a day in which you expect visitors but with bad outside weather conditions: what will take preference: your animals's health or your commercial interests?

please consider all the complications and implications: TMHO it isn't worth the trouble
don't put yourself before such a dilemma

especially considering that if you choose the other road, potential visitors (to which you can sell coffee and cake ) will be entirely enchanted by your system and will have not one single second thought on the health and safety of your produce. And will buy more.
And that means you have to put less effort in commercializing
and you will get the best possible price for your products.

keep your brain working, Chelle

it is doing fine

frank

Not really neglecting your objection... just don't want to lift the beds is all... unnecessary expense.... to large and heavy to make it worthwhile for me. It would really tax my learner construction skills too... remember the KISS principle?

Will see if I can access some.... might not grow locally. Heard of chicory but not BELGIAN chicory.....

Huge place... and downstairs not used....also lots of strange nooks.... perfect for mushrooms... cool and little light..... GH too hot I think. Doesn't integrate easily with AP.

No fear... want to use one triple flout. No fiddling in trying to get all beds well watered and drained.

Knew you would come back with that... .... so let you...
My marketable fish will not be coming from the AP system.... they are there to feed the plants and service personal and family consumption.... will be building a very large dam for more large scale fish production one day.... want the hens over cos it integrates so well.... done in asia.... good for teaching the underpriviledged about integration. Can't put them over worms... manure is too hot.... TCL pointed that out to me.
Salmonella is something I would want to monitor in my livestock anyway.... I eat poultry.

Taken from a site in the Netherlands... http://www.safe-poultry.com/preventionandcontrol.asp

Easy clean-up.... a VERY desirable benefit! Stock safety at night from wildlife and others who like to "share".... not to be under-estimated. In extremely hot weather I will be cooling the system with a built-in extraction fan.... already sourced and priced. Maybe "whirley birds" in the roof too. Have used them successfully elsewhere. Cycling the AP system will also cool things down..... lots to learn so I don't have all the answers.... but do understand some local challenges. I have jackal and leopard and porcupines to contend with here at night.... and monkeys by day. The sides will be solid to give strength to the structure and build a door in... lengthwise and curved over as a roof will be electrical conduit cut into 600mm lengths and joined as squares.....and resting on sides that are arched at the top.... all covered in thick plastic... but lower part will have some sort of mesh too. Want my rabbits and hens safe at night. Might end up putting the whole GH inside electrical fencing in the end. Seen some DIY sites and a friend said it is not rocket-science... so I do have a way to go.... but know it will all be fun....

PS.... maybe I'm that excellent sales person! Hens over fish?..... easy sell! Who wants sick hens anyway?

Re-posting info on water cycling here so won't forget it..... from OBOs system thread.