Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Back on to your whole flood and drain and flout discussion.

I still don't think you really need to install any sort of flout or flush mechanisim for the top header tank. You don't need to have a major in-rush of water for the whole thing to work. You can let that top tank just act as your pumping battery and let it continuously trickle out to the top bank of grow beds. Once they fill to the appropriate height they either siphon or drain with a flout into the next lower fish tank and that will start filling the next bank.

I think you will drive yourself nuts trying to get everything to align in a perfect synchronized cascade since there are so many variables that will start changing once plants start growing and fish start pooping. If the beds are equipped with flouts or even the remote flout tub and all interconnected, then it doesn't matter very much how quickly they fill and if for some reason, they don't fill enough to drain the first time round, they will drain the next time, if running continuous that is ok (this is the situation that requires you to have the really big sump though.)

Your question about the remote flout bin. If it is interconnected with the bottoms of all the grow beds, then as it drains the grow beds will drain into it and thus drain also. This only requires that the flow rate through the bed media and the interconnect pipes to the tube be faster than the flout itself will drain the flout tub. The interconnect pipes need to be really big. Doing the interconnect thing does require that you get things really level as in the tops of all the beds and the flout bin need all be level with each other otherwise you won't be able to flood them all to the same depth. Ideally the flout bin would be deeper than the grow beds to give you more draw down on the bottom of the grow beds but there may be a limit as to how much draw down you can effectively get with a flout. The flout bin needs to be as long as it is tall but can otherwise be pretty narrow, just needs to be wide enough for the flout to smoothly operate.

Somewhere up there you mentioned needing to step over pipes. You don't necessarily need to make trip hazards for yourself. You can have an overflow pipe that comes out of the fish tank and drops to floor level or just below and then comes back up to bed level so walking around your greenhouse need not be like practicing the hurdles. I have several places in my system where drain lines drop down into the mulch on the ground and then come up and over the edge of the next tank or bed. Only requirement is that the outlet needs to be a bit lower than the inlet. No worries about water sitting in the pipes since it is being cycled regularly same as the little bit of water that remains in the bottoms of the grow beds.

Searched on the net and you are so right TCL! Will have to be my rabbits then over the earthworms. Going to get French Angoras. SO glad you pointed this out!

I am going to think of a way to put them over the fish as they do in Asia. Can hens not be checked by a vet for salmonella?



I have come to believe that any pathogens entering a vermicompost system are processed out by the earthworms.... even hazardous toxic waste is being cleaned up by them. You might find this video interesting.... fhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAJkeUexQwI

The video link didn't copy right.... here it is again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAJkeUexQwI

don't worry about floats.
they are the best and simplest solution to flood and drain
and absolutely the most reliable
and perfectly adjustable as explained
pity they need so much place, but for you there is no problem as you have big growbeds
if well designed, the float will always kick in, whatever the inflow, even if it is only droplets
you need the flexible pipe connected to the back side of the floating collector and slightly higher than the bottom of it
and you need the floating collector to be relatively heavy so it sinks when it is filled as soon as it is overflowed.
you can easily adjust that weight: put some pebbles in it at he end farthest from the drain so it is slightly tilted
even the smallest amount of water will make it sink and kick in


TMO is not correct: the output must be faster than the than the inflow or the float will continue to drain and even then your growbeds will overflow.
you absolutely need to evacuate the water from your growbeds quickly or they will overflow.


here again your worries are unnecessary, see the explanation above.
One float per growbed will allow you to adjust the nutrient delivery according to the specific needs of the plants in the beds: some need a lot of nutrients, so a faster flood and drain, other need less, so a slower flood and drain.

frank

I would definitely not do this if you are thinking of inviting visitors:
it would be a commercial mistake
city people will not buy fish they know that is fed with poop
nor will they eat it
it is difficult to build a good reputation
it takes one second to ruin that forever

frank

Just a side note about the pathogen and toxin negating capacity of worms or vermicompost. I'm not saying that worms don't get rid of pathogens but how can you be certain that every little speck has been processed by the worms when the manure is continually being added and then even stuff that has been processed by worms might touch and become contaminated by material that has not been processed. These are the drawbacks to a "bin" type system with continual additions of material. To get the more perfect processing on a continual system you might want to look into the belt type worm waste processing rigs that are more of a expensive commercial thing. But anyway, kinda beside the point for our sort of set up.

If you were to work out a roosting area in the greenhouse with an easily scraped out under area that you could clean out and compost regularly outside, then you will have some really good compost for any dirt planting you may have going on. Perhaps even diverting the bunny pee into that mix as well since the worms are not very keen on urine either. Of course really it is easier to divert the berries by a screen below the hutches where the urine drops straight through and the poops roll down the slight angle into the worm bin at the side.

Don't mind me too much I'm just kinda pondering.

Will the GBs then not always have wet feet? It would certainly be simpler to do it this way!


Well I do have that anyway… so that is no problem


Noted.


I like the idea of lowered to increase draw down…. But then beds need even more raising…. Will look further into this…


So you seem to accept a single flout for all 5 GBs as plausible… just getting inflow larger than outflow… as SC also helped me to understand.

Ahhhh!

Of course new flow will push it out…. And maybe leave some rusty nails in the water that never drains at the bottom! Still haven't forgotten about the chelated Iron I want for free..

Thanks so much TCL!

My system runs continuous and I do notice right around the inlets to the beds that some plants don't like it there but otherwise, the beds do flood and drain, it just happens constantly since once the bed stops draining, it is filling again. Anyway, only the top set of beds would likely be truly continuous if you go with the interconnected flout design.

So just put plants that like it a little wetter up in the top set of beds.

I think the interconnected bed design and single flout could work. You just need to use really big pipes to interconnect them and really big pipes connecting to the flout tub. Some overflows placed about in case something clogs up would be good insurance.

With flouts remember that the inflow must be slower than the outflow or you overflow but you don't need to worry about your inflow being too slow to kick it off the way you do with auto siphons.

You have such a wonderful design to work with here, I'm so jealous of you hill!!!!!!

Cyara-
If you have the fish tanks between each level, I would have each of the growbeds on a level with its own flout. (I think someone did an "outer flouter" that worked similarly, but lived outside the growbed).
Since you don't have each level drain directly into the next level, but have a buffer (pond) between, I would suggest that the GBs have their own draining mechanism, keeping the tsunami effect to a minimum.

I think that the comment about different inputs/outputs for the flout was referring to having a single flout drain multiple GBs. If you are draining multiple GBs with a single flout, have a 2" flout with a 3" pipe to each of the other GBs, thus ensuring that all the GBs can drain into the flouted (I just created a new word!) GB, and the flout will not stop draining until all of the GBs are drained.

On the other hand, you will have to ensure that the overall input to the flout is smaller than the output - in other words, if you are running a 2" flout, only have a 1" input from the tank above feeding it. That way, it will be able to drain the GB and stop the draining properly.

If I were doing the cascading beds with tanks between them, I would do something like:

2" (50mm) SLO/SRO drain in the top pond (with the trickle drain feeding the same pipe from lower down with a ball valve to allow for power issues, etc.)
The 2" SLO/SRO drain would feed to multiple 1" (25mm) pipes with ball valves (for adjustability) going to each GB on the level. Each GB would have a 2" (50mm) flout draining into the next level of fish tank.

The next level would do the same thing. This way each pond would be a buffer, and the growbeds with their independent flouts would flood and drain independently and out of sync, so that after a while, the pond levels would not fluctuate much.
(A GB would drain about 4 times faster than it filled, but that would raise the level of the pond below, which would increase the draining rate of the SRO/SLO drain in that pond, thus restoring equilibrium).

You shouldn't need the trickle in any of the lower tanks, but I would make the top tank large to buffer against power/wind loss, but you would need to stock the top tank according to the low level rather than the normal equilibrium state. (I imagine a huge place for the sump, and the pump would fill the top tank when it's working, but when wind stops, power goes out, and the river stops running, your CHIFT CHIFT CHIFT CHIFT PIST system would keep a slow flood/drain going until your pumps came back on line.

Back to the rope pump, I think that may be the simplest way, since you could run it through a pipe laying on the ground going up the side of your slope from your sump to the top tank. It would also allow you to get the first tier running then when you build the second tier, you could add rope and pipe, and not have much to change on your setup, where a pump would have to be sized for the total head at the beginning, or you would have to run a multi-stage pumping system. (Yuck!)

If you were doing the rope pump, you could start with the full-length rope and set your windmill/pumping tower at the top, then as you built each layer, you could add lengths of pipe,and move the top T section outlet accordingly.
-Doug

I will have to make a few to get the best result. I understand the mechanics.
I don’t understand what you mean by this….
Yes. That is important.
OK will play around with stones. Just have to be sure they don’t roll down the pipe!
I don't get that. If the inflow is slower then the flout will have to keep resetting... if the inflow is faster then the flout will stay down until draining is complete surely?
It is whether the bed that is further away from the water source will have wet feet too long because it takes too many cycles to fill it enough to initiate siphon.... that is what worries me.

Thanks again Frank for your inputs. Much appreciated.

Please keep pondering! Makes so much sense to me! I have so much to think about that I am almost going goggle-eyed! Really appreciate that you have given me these pointers TCL! Saved a lot of time and trouble... for sure

Good idea. Watercress is high in iron and loves wet feet. Will think of others. A large system will probably have its little micro-climates that can be taken advantage of...

I was thinking of even building them together with passage ways.... full depth of the GB to prevent cloggling of pipes... have a lot of thinking to do....

Must think about this too... and really whacked now... .... been struggling with the borehole tonight... the gland packing has gone and it was spraying as it pumped.... only fixed temporarily with the help of a friend....

Thanks TCL. Means a lot that you think it a good design. The lengths I need to go to farm monkey-free!

Hi Doug! I need to give your posting a fresh brain.... gone into shut-down ..... but thanks! Know it will be worth the read.

did you check whether you can deviate some water from the river to the vicinity of your setup, Chelle
That would be a much more reliable energy source

frank

Hey? If the water is coming in faster than it can go out it will overflow. Ideally you want the flout to keep resetting. Flood, drain, flood, drain etc etc.

I had (have) a problem with my large system where some of the siphons will intiate, drain the bed, then wont break cleanly and just keep the bed drained . I can fix this with a simple breather pipe, but just hav'nt had time yet

I have fixed two of them, and they work great now.