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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 6th, '08, 21:39 
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"Don't people put clove oil in their mouth to dull dental pain and shit?"

you'd fit right in here, living next door to vinniV, just ask monya :)

seriously thought, i said the same thing in my mind when i read ruperts answer.


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 6th, '08, 21:48 
Ok... coz you raised the question.... :roll: ... :lol:

Here's the official blurb.... note the warnings... hence the "non-registration"... :wink:

Clove Oil vs. Eugenol

Clove oil is actually a mixture of different compounds. The three significant active ingredients are eugenol, isoeugenol and methyleugenol. 'Clove oil' is 85 to 95% eugenol. Isoeugenol and methyleugenol make up 5 to 15% of the remaining ingredients. Isoeugenol is the compound considered by some aquaculturists to have the best anesthetic effect. However, neither clove oil nor any individual active ingredient of clove oil (eugenol, isoeugenol, or methyleugenol) is approved for use for the anesthesia of fish.

2 Approval Status

Clove oil has been affirmed as Generally Recognized as Safe (GRAS) as a substance added directly to human food (21 CFR 184.1257).

Eugenol is GRAS in animal feed (21 CFR 582.60) and isoeugenol is cleared for use in human food (21 CFR 172.515). Both compounds are listed as synthetic flavoring substances and adjuvants.

Eugenol (not clove oil) is used as a component in dental cement for temporary fillings (21 CFR 872.3275). It is considered a device exempt from premarket notification procedures.

The fact that clove oil or its components are GRAS for use in dental cement or as food additives under these conditions does not justify the use of these products as new animal drugs.

Neither clove oil nor eugenol is approved as a new animal drug to treat or mitigate any diseases in any species in the U.S. Therefore, the use of either clove oil or eugenol as an anesthetic for fish makes them unapproved new animal drugs.


3 Anesthetic Choices for Use in Fish

MS-222 (FinquelÒ or Tricaine-SÒ), also known as Tricaine methanesulfonate are approved new animal drugs that can be used as an anesthetic in fish. The conditions of use for this drug can be viewed at http://dil.vetmed.vt.edu/AdvancedNADA/N ... ng=042-427 and http://dil.vetmed.vt.edu/AdvancedNADA/N ... ng=200-226.

In addition, carbon dioxide gas may be used as an anesthetic for cold-, cool-, and warm water fish and sodium bicarbonate may be used as an anesthetic on all fish (the sodium bicarbonate is principally an alternate source of carbon dioxide). The use of carbon dioxide gas and sodium bicarbonate as anesthetics makes these compounds new animal drugs. At this time, however, the Agency has chosen not to take regulatory action for the above use of these compounds. Details about the uses of these two compounds can be found at (http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/aquaculture/LRPDrugs.pdf).


4 Human Food Safety

Clove oil and isoeugenol have been used in foods and eugenol has been used in animal feeds. Concern for this class of chemical compounds led to the nomination of eugenol, isoeugenol, and methyleugenol for investigation under the National Toxicology Program (NTP). The NTP conducts studies in nominated drugs and chemicals to determine their potential to produce cancer. Studies have been completed for eugenol and methyleugenol, and are planned for isoeugenol. NTP determined that eugenol is an equivocal carcinogen and methyleugenol is carcinogenic to rodents. The contamination of clove oil with methyleugenol or isoeugenol raises the level of concern for human safety.


You can see the status of toxicology studies conducted on these compounds by going to the NTP website at http://ntp-server.niehs.nih.gov/. Once there, use the search function. A search for 'eugenol' brings up all the related test results.


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 6th, '08, 22:16 
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veggie boy wrote:
Wot r u suggesting they b trained 2 do Frank? Training the big ones to eat at one time and the smaller at another :?


exactly, VB, but time wise the other way round: first the little ones, then the bigger ones
if you would have an automatic feeding system with two exits that would be doable:
an enclosure which lets enter only the small ones is alimented first, some minutes later the tank is alimented
one or two differently colored lights would alert the fish

or an adjustable width enclosure which slowly opens over a period of time would allow the smallest fish first access to food, then bigger, then bigger

this would still allow the bigger fish to have access to all the food they need for maximum growth
meanwhile ensuring that the smaller ones get enough and are not dominated by the bigger ones
as I have read somewhere that hierarchy exists with fish as with most animals.

scroungeable materials are readily available for completely automatizing this cheaply: (i.e. a car window screen motor)

I have to spend my time primordially at finishing building my system first as winter is nearing, but winter days will surely find me experimenting

frank


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 6th, '08, 22:34 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
just not sure it's worth the time and effort though...

surely not your time and effort, Rupe :roll:
I wouldn't think of bothering you with it :)

but maybe that of mine
and that of others? :cheers:

As usual your comments are very interesting and I am impressed by your knowledge (no joke!)
so they are much appreciated
but also as usual they are mostly besides the thread :cry:

I am very interested by clove oil and will surely follow a new thread you would start on this subject

but this thread is started for trying to find an application for the training ability of fish

so please don't spend your time here if you don't think is is worth the effort :mrgreen:

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 6th, '08, 22:46 
Give it a rest Frank.... was just a "general" comment... you want to do it... go for it...

To continue the discussion.... you'd have to assume that...

Either there wouldn't be a marked difference in size between the fish...

Or that you intended and could deliver different sized feed....

General rule of thumb is you feed a pellet that is half the size of the fishes gape (mouth)...

A 2mm pellet would feed a fish with a 4mm mouth.... say 50-80mm... (for the sake of illustration)

Whereas a 25-40mm fish would need a crumble... or 1mm pellet...


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 6th, '08, 23:17 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
A 2mm pellet would feed a fish with a 4mm mouth.... say 50-80mm... (for the sake of illustration)
Whereas a 25-40mm fish would need a crumble... or 1mm pellet...

glad you are on subject now, Rupert, thanks.

the whole objective of my suggestion for training fish is to avoid having these differences in one tank

frank


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 6th, '08, 23:37 
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One option, of course is to grade and feed accordingly:

Have narrowly spaced bars, and if the fish can swim through them, they get to the finer feed first.

The next set of bars allow medium and small fish to get to the less fine feed next, then the course feed is dumped in the tank. That way, you can grade your fish (ring the dinner bell, and all the smaller fish go grab their dinner, and you grab the bigger ones.)

Automated training would be best, and I think that you could do it using the same system that aquaculturists use for grading the fish (progressively smaller spaced bars). The only thing is that you'd have to have a way to remove the grading bars after the feeding, or the fish would get fat and not be able to get back out after eating.


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 7th, '08, 00:25 
hygicell wrote:
the whole objective of my suggestion for training fish is to avoid having these differences in one tank


I would contend Frank, that that's probably just not possible.... even if you initially stock with all fish the same size (if possible)....

And assuming that you can "selectively" feed to match the size of the fish.... some fish just grow faster than others.... especially in early growth....

Granted, perhaps some of that is due to "competition" from "dominant" fish... one of the benefits of manually grading fish at a certain size, is that the slower growing fish will then often exhibit a growth "spurt"....

How much is due to competition, is perhaps a point to investigate... but probably hard to quantitify... other factors such as fish health, genetics, onset of sexual maturity etc etc.... may influence feed patterns and growth...

Inevitably, there will be differences in size within the tank IMO....

The need to seperate (by some means) the different sized fish... to feed different sized feed... at different protein %, number of feeds/day, different daily feed rations due to differing biomasses....

Would require multiple automated feeders, structures within the tank (removable/replacable) and considerable ongoing time investment...

And would at best be based (if we're not grading/sampling), on a large degree of "guesstimation" regarding feed factors...

And IMO would require an investment of personal time that just doesn't justify the result... :dontknow:

If all you wish is to train the fish to feed when required, when hungry.... with minimal personal involvement...then set up pendulum feeders

Fish can be trained to on-demand pendulum feeders very readily.... but that doesn't resolve the question of grading... and size differentials...


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 7th, '08, 01:03 
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greenedo wrote:
One option, of course is to grade and feed accordingly:
Have narrowly spaced bars, and if the fish can swim through them, they get to the finer feed first.
The next set of bars allow medium and small fish to get to the less fine feed next, then the course feed is dumped in the tank. That way, you can grade your fish (ring the dinner bell, and all the smaller fish go grab their dinner, and you grab the bigger ones.)
Automated training would be best, and I think that you could do it using the same system that aquaculturists use for grading the fish (progressively smaller spaced bars). The only thing is that you'd have to have a way to remove the grading bars after the feeding, or the fish would get fat and not be able to get back out after eating.


thank you for taking a positive attitude toward my idea, Greenedo, which is what is needed to solve a problem
your ideas are sound but inverted: of course the first set of bars in your setup must be wide and then narrower and narrower, or the big fish will not get any food at all
that is where the training and the automatisation might make a difference: with gradually opening apertures, the small fish would be first, and the bigger fish would still get what they want, you would not need to remove the grading bars as they would open to the size of the biggest fish, thus allowing them to "escape" unless you would want to hold the largest one(s) for harvesting.
there is also the possibility of "one way" gates to let fish escape.

RupertofOZ wrote:
I would contend Frank, that that's probably just not possible....

you obviously don't believe in the concept nor in the feasibility, Rupert
I respect that
now please take a step back and watch this thread develop either to a solution or to a dead end
in which case you will have the gratitude of saying: see, I told you, didn't I?
but be patient to do so
I might be proven wrong but so might you
please show the same respect to people who do not share your opinion by allowing them to develop an idea, even if that might lead to a flop
greetings

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 7th, '08, 01:21 
I would have hoped that highlighting what appears to be possible constraints, might perhaps assist you and anyone else in identifying issues that need to be addressed and perhaps thus generate "solutions" that can be incorporated into the design process to actually aid your end goal Frank....

I even offered a method (on-demand pendulum feeders) of "training" the fish to resolve one of the management issues... :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 7th, '08, 01:26 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
I even offered a method (on-demand pendulum feeders) of "training" the fish to resolve one of the management issues... :wink:

thanks for the positive suggestion, Rupert
I will incorporate it as a possibility or even as advisable in the event of a positive result

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 7th, '08, 06:11 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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There is no better sight than a whole mob of fish jumping for feed...I put forward attestations from EB, Faye, C1, OBO, our american forumers with tilapia, etc.......

but to those others, why not just toss on a measured quantity of food - the big ones jump in and get their fill first
...next toss in another measured qty of food...continue until all fish fed
by having the pellets spread over the whole of the fish tank allows for a multitude of fish to feed at the same time also

...just some simple alternatives :bigsmurf:


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 7th, '08, 06:38 
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EllKayBee wrote:
There is no better sight than a whole mob of fish jumping for feed...I put forward attestations from EB, Faye, C1, OBO, our american forumers with tilapia, etc.......

but to those others, why not just toss on a measured quantity of food - the big ones jump in and get their fill first
...next toss in another measured qty of food...continue until all fish fed
by having the pellets spread over the whole of the fish tank allows for a multitude of fish to feed at the same time also

...just some simple alternatives :bigsmurf:


hmmm... difficult questions to answer:
ignoring them might be considered as impolite
reacting to them might be worse

my question is a pure technical one:
can it be solved, yes or no
can such a system be constructed?
who will help me with it?

only when such a system exists will we be able to put it to the test

this to the glory of either the inventors of of the skeptics

So skeptics, please give us a chance
you stand nothing to lose:
if we fail you glory
if we succeed you will be able to apply it

frank


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 7th, '08, 07:19 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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You believe it has merit then go for it Frank and report back on your findings - my belief is that it takes an enjoyable part out of BYAP and that is feed time.

I certainly do not envisage carrying fish past the eat by date and can't see the benefit of training fish beyond what I am doing now

Animals (dogs, horses etc) are trained to perform for many more years - so a benefit and a satisfaction is derived from the training - cattle, sheep bred for eating are given basic training, here is the food/water in theses troughs for eating

Milking cows are given more training due to the length of life required and produce expedcted and as such the extra training is beneficial

If you wish to train your fish, by all means, but to me it means an attachment which could impair my judgement in whether I should kill to eat or refrain - these are my thoughts and am not attempting to sway others in any direction :flower:


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 Post subject: Re: fish training
PostPosted: Oct 7th, '08, 07:24 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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Quote:
So skeptics, please give us a chance
you stand nothing to lose:
if we fail you glory
if we succeed you will be able to apply it


This is not something that any person on this forum believes in nor has promoted to my knowledge and is a statement that is not in the best interests of BYAP in general


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