Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

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my view is that in its simplest it is an over flow.

it should be called an overflow prefixed by the type.

for example we have a no holes overflow, call this one something along the lines of updraft overflow.

whaddayareckon?

The second photo is chift pist

Actually, F&F, both those pictures and drain set ups are CHIFT set ups.

updraft overflow could be good

The answer is quite simple,
Obviously it's the opposite to the "No Holes" overflow,
Therefore it should be called the "No Holes Barred" overflow!

But a no holes overflow doesn't necessarily draw water/solids off the bottom and you can add one of these devices onto a no holes overflow to make it draw solids from the bottom while avoiding putting holes in the tank.

Updraft overflow or updraft Drain sound good to me. You can even make an updraft wall to draw solids off the bottom of a tank and run it over a waterfall spillway (what I did where my catfish tank waterfalls into my big tank.

good of you to post the drawing again with your question, TCL

there are two sentences on it that include the word siphon:

no cap on outer pipe to avoid siphon
and: use T to avoid siphon

This indicates that if you don't heed these remarks, you will siphon
So with the cap and without the T they are siphons

That doesn't mean that without the cap and with the T they are not.

They still are, even if at some level exposed to free air

It is a misconception that siphoning is tantamount to draining to the bottom

take your toilet at home: there is a siphon on the exit just as there is one on every bath, shower, wash table, etc...
All of these siphons are exposed to free air
none of them is draining all the water out of the system

Quite the contrary: some water is required to stay in them to shut off smells

exposing a siphon at some level to free air allows for controlling (limiting) the siphoning to this level which you require to remain in a vessel.
Over that level the siphoning stops.

So TMO the sentences on the drawing really should read:
no cap on outer pipe to avoid uncontrolled siphoning which will completely drain the tank
and: use T to avoid uncontrolled siphoning which will completely drain the tank

Any drain that takes the bottom water out of a tank and brings it to a higher level before expelling it is siphoning, so deserves to be called a siphon drain
the many variations should have them carry an extra descriptive word, like overflow siphon drain (meaning it will only start to siphon and drain once over a level and will stop siphoning and draining under that level.

my opinion, but I believe it is sound

I know I sound picky, but there is a very small margin in which one can be understood or not.
so I go on: to me, a (loop or other) siphon can be one of two things: one that is completely below a tank bottom and serves to keep some water in an outlet to avoid smells and one which has the upper part of it above the bottom of a tank
Only the second type gives the possibility automatically kicking in and out.
If that is the purpose of this siphon, I would call it an autosiphon (Wikipedia calls them selfsiphons, but I think the word auto describes better what they do)

So to me a loop siphon is below the tank level and a loop autosiphon has part of it above tank bottom.

Indeed the flout doesn't care whether inflow is fast or slow, which is an enormous advantage
and the dimension of the tube they are connected to decides the speed of the draining without endangering the functioning (which is the case with loop autosiphons: if the section is too big and the inflow too slow, they will not kick in and siphon, they will just overflow.
so I am reconsidering my reticence.
Let's together try and work on them so they take less space.
I already have a simple idea on how to make them readily adjustable in height, which is (was ) an advantage of loop autosiphons
let's invent a super flout
are you game?

You are an audio engineer. So your knowledge of electricity and electronics far exceeds mine
I hope my explanations did not shock you too much

I treat electricity as if it is a hydraulic system. That allows me to understand and explain on a basic level.
I truly hope I didn't write anything that is unacceptable

tripping to battery backup is (I'm getting cautious here, so bar that) seems easy to me: a relay on the mains with a NC switch on the 12VDC would probably do the trick

but we shouldn't confuse Chelle
let her first enjoy her summa cum laude degree

Frank

siphon overflow will do
it describes exactly what is happening: solids are siphoned off the bottom of the tank



Frank

should have been:
under that level the siphoning stops.

too greedy to kick on the submit button

Frank

Would I be adding the venturi effect to my T-type drain by reducing the pipe diameter in the middle of the vertical pipe? The narrowing of teh pipe will accelerate water flow at this point. If I narrowed it by degree - and then widened it by degree - it would lessen any drag effect would it not? Such a restriction in the pipe causes the water pressure to decrease. Does this not cause suction or lift?.... enough lift for the solids from the bottom of the Fish Pond to rise? This is not creating a vacuum - only the first stages of it - but still it seems to me it would be effective..... what do you think Frank?

Another thought.... if I then did the same to the horizontal outlet pipe... with a little hole or upward pipe inserted after the constriction.... would the decreased water pressure not cause air to be sucked in?.... thereby increasing my DO directly into the GB along with the water?

Steve,
you really are a super moderator
much appreciated.
please feel free to move or copy any of my posts or part of them to the new threads you create
I will not sue you for any copyrights

Frank

will do tomorrow. (move)

i'm sticking with the updraft overfow for my vote. while probably technically correct about the siphon the whole point of renaming (to me anyway ) is to avoid confusion and mis-interpretation of the name.

siphon has been exclusively used here to denote a draining to the bottom mechanism. while not as bad or technically incorrect (sorry tclynx ) as using the word venturi, i feel it may still cause confusion amongst newbies

chelle, without referring back to your drawing (its 2am here ) the pressure drop occurs AT the point of pipe size decrease (hence velocity increase and pressure decrease). that is the point where you would pipe to the atmosphere to draw in air, and if you wanted to get super efficient the point of minimum pressure would be right at the centre of the flow.

It may even be centre of flow but moved downstream, seem to remember something about this from the theory on orifice plates, but this is all way above what is required. It probably better from a backyarders point of view NOT to insert the small tube into the flow at all, because if its mis-aligned you may jet water OUT

And if I piped DOWN to the solids at this super efficient point of minimum pressure?

I want to mix the solids with the water.... at this point of lowest pressure send a pipe down to the solids with a funnel on the end to scoop up lots.... ?


Would the T-drain be enough to lift them efficiently?



Nope. A second pipe sent down from the de-pressurised point would give that second input.

The "updraft" drains or whatever we are going to call them, seem to work just fine without any special effects to remove solids.

Trick I'm finding is that you need to keep fish out of them but yet have them open enough to suck up solids. Not too tricky when the fish are all bigger than a certain size but when you start talking about fry and small fingerlings, there is a balance between small enough screen to protect them yet no having to constantly clean the blocked screens.