Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

"And yep, maybe female Tilapia don't have much/any value in your eyes... but in a food hungry country, maybe that's different..."


Mate . I'll try again ,, I grow these things in the very poorest part of Thailand ..... it is simply STUPID to grow females in any number because of the bad food conversion ratio and the hassle of trying to contol MILLIONS ,, in my case 10's of MILLIONS of babies.

male tilapia grow to 700 grammes in 6 months ,, FCD just about 1.2-1.
Sale price in POOR isaan ( north east thatiland ) 50 Baht per kilo ....., food cost 30 Baht per kilo ..... YEP we make 14 BAHT ( 35 cents AUD) a kilo for growing them , transporting them etc etc etc. Now you want to add extra expense to keep slow growing females????
Sorry Rupe ,, you don't understand the reality of this .

Strawberries can not be grown on top of gravel unless you keep them above the gravel some how. The moisture WILL cause rot as they get ripe.

Ah Chappo, mate.... I do understand what YOU are saying.... and aren't questioning YOUR reality.



I'm aware that IF left in a dam/pond/tank with males ... that female Tilapia will breed like crazy and produce "millions" of babies.....

And that the frequency of spawning, decreased feeding while holding eggs etc ... results in slower growth than males.... therefore lower FCR....

Synapto's client however has specifically stated that they do not intend to do that....

They have four ponds available and ...



I'm trying to outline exactly what you're saying, for similar reasons....

They will have to grade out the fry from the "brood stock tank"..... grow out fingerlings to the point where they can sex them.... and then stock either tank3 with males and/or tank 4 with the females....

The constant effort and time involved in doing this will be significant I feel... given the breeding rate of Tilapia in the hatchery tank => fingerling tank => growout tanks....

Is the size of a female Tilapia big enough to have some economic value before it has reached sexual maturity and been "sexed" and graded from the fingerling tank.... or at that point.... perhaps not....

But has it some value over and above zero value by burying them.... perhaps....

Will a female Tilapia acheive better growth rates and FCR... if graded into a single sex tank.... probably.... will this justify a complete grow out..... maybe not...

Again we come back to ... is there any redeemable value in doing so... over and above dumping them....???... which has no value....

They're all questions that I'm wondering whether Synapto's client has thought of.... let alone the significant amount of time and resources involved in doing it....

But that's the brief he's been given..... so lets try and outline the various pros and cons of the clients brief...

You've raised valid points that they need to consider... I'm merely raising other points for them to consider.... and incorporating what you've said....

ie. Question to client.... is the time, effort and return in your proposal worth it.....???

Having travelled Africa quite extensively Chappo (many years ago)... I can tell you that they'll happily eat very small fish... especially when hungry.... will they pay enough for them to make a return on the costs of hatching, seperating, sexing... let alone further grow out.... don't know... I'm not there....

Can they break even at a certain point, size???... as above....

Can they redeem some value return by other means.... "sexing" and selling them as "bait", cat food, fish feed??? .... as above...

Don't think you can argue though that dumping them has zero value return... surely...

When I was young, I worked as a mechanic under a 'master mechanic'. The 'master mechanic' would instruct me to things chasing symptoms rather than solving problems. As I have always been one to find solutions to problems and like to fix things only one time, it was a frustrating job.

That job solidified one of my traits that continues to cost me jobs to this day. I tell folks the truth. At times I can avoid the truth by simply dodging the answers. At all times when events similar to this present themselves, I tell my journal my miss-givings in not too polite terms.

Many times one gets a job where the boss is clueless. It is not the job of the craftsman to educate to management. When faced with such choices, all one can do is ask how they want the project and make sure your name isn't on the 'designed by' line.

If I am asked, my normal remark is, "That is beyond my pay grade.", "That wasn't my decision." or " I haven't been paid for my advice." If/when it goes to court, a well kept journal is your best friend. One should never surrender their journal, or even let an involved party read the entire thing.

Anyway, I wish synaptoman the best of luck. I hope they have enough sense to tap that electrical line by the road. I don't wish anyone 'bad luck' but, if they are intent on driving down the highway to hell, I'll sure change a tire for them and fill their tank with fuel.

Eon

This ones gonna give you hell Synapto

Sub - contract it out

Yep, might be a smart thing to split it...

If the client really wants to persue the hatchery side of things... split it off as a purely aquaculture operation....

Growout and AP are compatible..... still leaves the time factor involved with either operation though IMHO..... let alone running two seperate ventures...

Hope they have the time and/or personnel..... and they'll need double of both, and a bucketful of cash... especially if they don't have prior knowledge.

Why don't you build a broodstock hatchery and fry grow out out of an earthen pond with concrete or block sides and top and use the tanks for growout only?

You could easily build it this way- the pond is rectangular with floating breeder cages with a catwalk across the tops- cages are attached to catwalk to hold into position. Catwalk is anchored on the edge of pond on one side and suspended with a metal cross support on the other side. Pond is further broken into smaller areas with mesh net barriers that can be moved as the fish grow.
The second picture is how you would move the youngest fry that drop down from the breeding cages, with a modified mesh barrier that permently stays in the pond, to the edge of the catwalk and then you just drop down a regular mesh barrier to prevent them from returning.
At the end of the run, slid the fingerlings over a net resting on the bottom to lift up and pull all fry out at one time.

Thanks for all the input guys (and gals). I think one of the reasons I was approached in the first place was because the "plan" started looking a bit vague. My approach to projects of this nature is slow and methodical. I will start by building the two greenhouses as requested. When the monster ponds arrive I'll either send them back and request something more workable or install them and commission them as an when I have a firm plan for them. We are busy establishing a small Tilapia hatchery anyway and there is no real reason for this client to supply his own fingerlings as they can be bought at about R1.60 (US 0.20) each.

My preference is male growout and a mixed bag of vegetables and strawberries at least for the first year until we know what will grow/sell here.

By year end we will probably have about 5 independently-owned small commercial sites locally and at that time I intend establishing an Aquaponically-grown market or even a shop in town where they can sell their produce. Our restaurant will also be using more and more aquaponically-grown produce as these guys come on stream.

As far as the electricity is concerned, I have bought a generator for during the construction stage and when it's time for pumps I'll merely spec the right pump for the job and then request sufficient power to run it from the client.

I think the approach to this project will be to be honest with the client at all times, trying not to tread on too many toes and slowly introduce them to the right way of doing things by example ie. taking them to other working sites and showing them.

It has slowly dawned on me that as these backyard systems are scaled up to small commercial sites, a decision has to be made where the emphasis is, ie are we growing fish with plants and gravel providing filtration or are we growing vegetables with the fish providing nutrients? Maybe (probably) I'm wrong.

Cheers and thanks once again.

What would be the most profitable food? Fish or Vegies - that would be the question.

Right on, it would help them immensely if they can get a handle on that question. The S&S business was profitable because of the plants that were sold, not the fish, but of course each AP location is a different market.

No, Synaptoman, you are right- you do have to decide whether the commercial system is geared towards fish or plants but that is not the half of it. For a commercial system to be viable, you have to be in constant production and that means maintaining whatever the operational parameters you have set- all year long. Plants need more nutrition in the very early stages and as they reach maturity, hopefully you can coincide that with the harvest of mature fish and restart both with young stock but that is doubtful, or you can harvest continously from both and still maintain the status quo but that takes a great deal of coordination between the two separate crops- you may need to supplement one or the other to get maximum performance. Fruiting and flowering crops are even more complicated in this regards as nitrogen levels need to drop for some of these to trigger. Levels of heat and humidity also need to be regulated for year round production. Commercial systems are a whole different animal. This is why I started studying greenhouse management and I am also considering taking a few college courses on the subject as well.
And one of reasons for the decision to grow the simplier commercial crops- mostly lettuces- that have a high but consistent turn over rate and don't require a lot of manipulation to produce. The grow beds will be mostly for personal use and experimentation to see how other plants fair.
One of the operational parameters that I have set for myself is the capability to expand or contract the system, at will, by just shutting off valves or adding to the system and turning on a couple of valves to incorporate into existing system. In my case, I felt I needed more control- my system is geared more towards fish-in the summer because of the extreme high temps, I may not be able to grow much for a month or two- at least not a commercial product that must meet size and perfection standards. At the same time, the fish may require more oxygen so shutting down part of the system but still maintaining the same water volume will increase oxygen in the fish tanks.
There are a lot more things to consider than just stocking fish and planting seeds.
You are lucky in one regard though; you have a ready market which is one of the biggest hurdles that I have- once I go commercial, out the gate, I have to compete with huge competitors that are already entrenched in the field.

About sums things up Angie....

Synapto, if you can source Tilapia fingerlings at "at about R1.60 (US 0.20) each" then to my mind I just don't see the point of investing the time and money required to setup/run a hatchery....

In fact by the time you factor in the feed, management time and other overheads.... does it really make sense to utilise one tank for a hatchery and another tank for "female" growout

If you think about it... it merely halves your AP potential capacity and returns, both fish and vegetable.... while requiring large amounts of time to produce a product that has virtually no profit return... for one reason or another....

It does give you more autonomy and that can be very important- disease, availability, and transportation costs are just a few issues that come to mind. Tilapia are a very nice fish for a variety of reasons- one of them being is that you can grow their feed if need be; another is their ease of breeding. There are many species of farmed fish where you are at the mercy of the hatchery to give you what you need, when you need it. The more operational control you have, the better your position.


If you adhere to a conveyor style of fingerling production, in a separate pond, management time can be minimal. However, the cost of a hatchery production system will be substantial but once the infrastuture is complete, few other costs are involved.


This statement I partially agree, use straight aquaculture operations for the hatchery on a separate system from the AP- disease control is one of the reasons for this. AP is perfect for production tanks as you are starting with several knowns- volume of water, size of fish, number of fish, etc. and numbers are necessary to calculate the nutrient requirements, not only for the fish but also any plants you plan to grow.

I'm with you on this one Rupe ..... I have NOT bothered breeding Tilapia ,, i buy top quality male only fingerlings for a few cents each ,, the breeder runs continual cross breeding to improve his strains and only makes dollars because he produces some 50,000,000 + per year. It just is NOT worth it to grow your own.

But the "customer" is always right ???