Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

[quote="OutbackNONozzie"]Chappo - you seem to have a problem using your eyes reading and listening to much more experienced fish keepers than you!!!

http://www.chilternkoi.baxx.net/Copper%20and%20koi.htm

In case you cant read still :

"Other species of "native" fishes; trout, sunfishes, catfish are even more sensitive, dying near concentrations near 0.10 ppm."

Copper is bad to fish!!



REPLY.
I have no trouble reading , in fact I can read in 3 different languages and have just began to learn a fourth. Your post is obviously designed to belittle me and make you feel like a "big man" . It didn't work , it has just shown people yopur general lack of intellect and red-neck nature. I'm sure if we where talking in the same room you would not have said that to me , this is called a "keyboard hero" , tough guy typing.
You also state that I do not learn from those with far more experience with fish ,, may i ask how much data you have collected on my experience in order to make this statement . My guess is you have collected zero and once again shown a redneck , keyboard hero , approach.
If indeed you had bothered to ask , I have in fact been keeping fish for 40 odd years , starting with Goldfish and working up through Tropicals and then even into Sea-horses. My 5 acre farm in Thailand produces TENS of tons of Tilapia and catfish , so also have experience beyond a bucket in the backyard.

Do you have trouble reading or is the lack of ability to process the information read that is the true problem ? Do you believe everything that people say?. I guess questioning of facts and research of data is beyond your intelligence quota..

Your supplied links are somewhat amusing,
1) Your first link is to a page about ALGACIDES , the specific use of high concentration copper sulphate. AHH we where talking about the use of some copper pipe NOT using copper sulphate as a poison.

2) Your second link , takes me to a google page with several write ups about Copper sulphate toxicity , I did NOT check them all , but the ones I did check did not mention anything about the levels leached from copper pipe that is essentially coated with Copper oxide ( stable and not dangerous in small amounts).

The question here is NOT if Copper Sulphate is bad , the REAL LIFE question is how much copper sulphate would leach out of a few metres of pipe , as already stated said pipe is coated in copper oxide. MY REAL world experience says , it would be absolutely minimal and well within tolerance range of fish.

Could you kindly , stay with the actual topic of discusssion , not bait me and as my mum always says ,, if you haven't got anything nice to say don't say ANYTHING.

Missed the point somewhat guys...... two seperate points... copper sulphate and copper cations (ions) in solution....

Copper Sulphate has in the past been used as a treatment in aquaculture, particularly pond based aquaculture.... but only has any benefit for short periods of time and can only be used in EXTREMELY low concentrations....otherwise it is LETHAL to Silver Perch....



Stuart Rowland is the leading Silver Perch expert in Australia and head scientist at the Grafton Research station....

http://www.aaq.com.au/Stuart_Rowland.htm


It is only approved for "minor" and infrequent use (in ponds) by permit

(I've broken the quote up for the purpose of clarity - from the above link)





Further reseach by oyster, prawn, yabbie and other crustacean growers has found that Copper is lethal to crustaceans in extremely low concentrations and has a cumulative affect like most "heavy" metals.

This is the point.... IT HAS A CUMULATIVE AFFECT .... IN FISH AND CRUSTACEANS.....

In a recirculating tank system or AP system it is DEFINITELY not to be used....

Not just because of it's cumulative affect in the fish flesh, but as constant exposure to acidic conditions would constantly add (and thus increase) the concentration of the copper (Cu) ion, or more correctly the copper cation in a recirculating system.... eventually to the point where it would be lethal to your fish.... and YOU, when you eat them

The article makes that abundantly clear especially in relation ot Silver Perch.... and trust me crustaceans....

You need to be clear on this Chappo if you intend to stock any crustaceans in particular.... like say a filter feeder... like freshwater mussels

Copper oxide will only form on the "outside" layer of copper pipng exposed to oxygen.... and will dissolve in an acidic solution ...

ie. if immersed in an AP system.....

And will be constantly dissolved (albeit in small concentrations) if acidic water is run through the piping.....

Be careful of applying pond based aquaculture principles to Aquaponics.... or indeed any recirc tank systems..... as they often just don't translate/transfer....

And be especially careful about applying techniques or methods employed in third world countries..... they might kill you!

Chappo... not having a go at you.....

But if you doubt the effect of copper on crustaceans... ask yourself the question...

Why was it (now banned - not good for marine reefs, corals) the primary ingredient in anti-fouling paints applied to ships hulls.... to get rid of barnacles/mussels and other attached critters.....

It's devasting to crustaceans.... still sometimes used for exactly that reason.... kills them ... dead... fast....

http://www.marine.csiro.au/LeafletsFold ... enbay.html

Rupert , I agree with all you wrote. Also remember plain water is lethal to humans if consumed in large enough quantities , so it is the amount here that is critical.
I guess the only way to get REAL data is for me to get 3 metres of pipe , and recirculate water through it from and back to a bucket containing fish poo and a PH around 7 .
Test copper levels at beginning , test 1 month later. I may as well use the bucket I'm doing my temperate testing with ,,AHHH must add some plants as they need and absorb copper.

AS for Third world countries ,, well agree , but Thailand is not really third world anymore ( beside the point) , My research and questioning here as well as numerous other areas of information are ultimately to teach the local Thai people how to do things better. Better for them , better for the polluted , once pristine , land.

Promise not to put copper near any fresh water mussels:)

..... I'm glad to hear it


Re : your suggested experiment.... pH 7 is neutral..... AP systems are often pH 6.5.... it's the acidic effect that's the key premise....

And consider that the normal daily processes of the breakdown of ammonia in the system is constantly (using carbonate cations present in your water) producing an acidic compound (carbonic acid)....

and remember 1.0 mg/L .... is 1ppm

Rupert , I never let my aquarium water get below 7 , I normally run it at around 7.5 , quite easily controlled.
But for the sake of the experiment I'll run 6.5 in order to have a "safety head".

AHHH , I know there's some copper water pipe around here somewhere!!!!!!

have to wait for weekend ..... it's near 4pm or as I like to refer to it "BEER OCLOCK":)
.

Hi Chappo
Jim has done some copper experiments, take a look at "Jims Planned System" thread (page 4). He managed to get 0.5ppm after 5 days and 1ppm within 2 weeks

Thank you Hex... was looking for that thread.... knew someone had done it ....

viewtopic.php?p=69316#p69316


and one of the US members used a copper pipe heat exchanger setup.... even painted it from memory....

ended up with similar results.... and dead fish

New copper pipes? ,, Sorry , I should read the thread myself.

Rupert ,, sorry I'm being stubborn on this point.

Best I leave it alone , test for myself and then work off those results.

Questioning others results is never a waste of time ..... remember a man once nearly lost his head because he said " The world is round".

Cheers.

Well, it got all cloudy yesterday so I decided to save the electricity and unhooked the experiment for now (wouldn't have gotten much chilling effect with such a heavy overcast over night anyway.) Still really cloudy today too. I might just clean things up for now and pull it out again after I'm back from this next job. This one won't be as long as the last.

TCLynx ,, please check into my dual system no compromise thread " on occasions . We are headed down the same path and ideas shared are ideas doubled.
You will see I have been testing a really good and cheap insulater. It has an aditional benefit , it has a differtential in insulation depending on which way it is layed. It insulates against heat at a high rating one direction and at a medium rating the opposite direction. A very usefull tool in what we are seeking.

Hay Steve,
Had any luck looking into high head low volume pumps yet? Jazzyplayermark has some old swimming pool solar heater panels that could really make this project worth while. We just need to work out our insulated vessels, heat exchanger coils, and appropriate pumps for the purpose.

I just found a stainless steel wort chiller for about $50! It is only a 25' coil but I think I may have just found something worth the chance. http://www.midwestsupplies.com/products/ProdByID.aspx?ProdID=7733

That's what I'd like, only much bigger.

Why does it need to be bigger?

I just bought a SS wort chiller on eBay the other day - I think it will make a good heat exchanger when submersed in my tank.