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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 07:35 
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I hate macs too. :blackeye:


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 07:43 
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Which way would you like the GUI to change? Add more items to the Shutdown menu like maybe sleep, log out, restart and shut down don't quite cover it?

List of 300 features in the Leopard install (included application features too)

http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/300.html

BTW we're looking at getting my stepson a computer for graduation, guess what we're probably getting him...

Hint: It may be a 20" iMac - not $4000, more like $1500 (probably get more RAM through an Internet memory seller). We already own Vista for the other iMac so we'll install tha on there and he'll be good to go no muss no fuss.


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 08:04 
Only 300..... By Microsoft’s own count, Windows Vista Service Pack 1 rolls up 551 separate hotfixes, in addition to 23 security updates rated Important and already delivered via Windows Update.

Guess that means "Tiger" wasn't that hot.... and first release Vista wasn't that good either....

But...

Addressbooks,Language Guides,the ability to select options from contextual pop-up menus,record a user action (hang on... didn't DOSKEY do that),a brand-new widget.....Widget Templates ...

I luv "widgets".....

... an elegant, distinctive new look across the entire system. The semitransparent menu bar and reflective Dock frame your desktop picture. The active application window stands out with a deeper drop shadow and a distinctive toolbar color.....

Dictionaries and language support.... DVD Player’s dramatic new full-screen interface....fonts...

The new iCal toolbar has the Leopard look, running across the top of the application window.....


Jezz... I'm sold..... and I haven't even got to iChat yet :lol:


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 08:09 
Throw in a set of steak knives and I'll convert :lol:


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 08:13 
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By Microsoft’s own count, Windows Vista Service Pack 1 rolls up 551 separate hotfixes, in addition to 23 security updates rated Important and already delivered via Windows Update


http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1249

... and you can count how many "hotfixes" are being installed by the Mac's software updates, but so what?


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 08:17 
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Rope are you still going to compare the Mac OS to Citroens?


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 08:34 
Why not DD.... the new Citroens are pretty smick :lol:

Seriously though....it really is an indictment of modern living that we've allowed ourselves to be seduced by interfaces, new looks, widgets.. packaging that's being passed off as "features"....

And that goes for both products DD.....

Really, in terms of "functionality" .... what do either offer that is in any way a break through in terms of functionality.... do we really do anything different with either release....

IMHO.... nope.... it's just pretty packaging, ribbons, bows and glitter... sold under the pretext of a "new" product.... phewwit.... bullocks....

At the end of the day a spreadsheet is a spreadsheet, a chat program is a chat program, explore is finder etc etc.....

Same purpose, same "basic" functionality required... maybe one does one thing slightly better than the other.... bit the differences are pretty minor.....

And mainly cosmetic.......

Now the new release of Ubuntu is pretty.... and easy to use, learn, install.......


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 08:59 
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So why do you hate the iPhone?

That is a good example of Apple's value over other efforts - rethink or invent a better interface. Do you really think that the other phone companies would have produced as elegant an interface instead of just adding more freaking buttons to the phone?


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 09:44 
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As I see it, all operating systems have their strengths & weaknesses:
* Mac zealots are going to hilight the technical strengths of Mac OS X & the weaknesses of its competitors (Windoze, Linux, etc.)
* And Micro$erfs are going to hilight the technical strengths of Vista & the weaknesses of its competitors (Mac OS X, Linux, etc.)

I think it is prudent to consider more than just the technical aspects (of anything!). M$, Apple, etc. spend billions of dollars to deter consumers from thinking about the ramifications of using Proprietary software, as opposed to Open Source software.

As well as the philosophy of Open Source software (described in the link above), I also consider my own philosophy. Personally, I dislike being manipulated. Whether it be by governments, adverts, people with a warped agenda, or companies whose primary purpose is not to create a good product or service, but to make money.

The people that write Open Source software (usually) do so without an agenda.

"Here's some software I wrote. I think it's useful and pretty cool. You might find it useful too, but it's your choice."

And despite the lack of billion dollar in-your-face marketing campaigns to manipulate consumers, lots of people actually use Open Source software.

Anyway, check out this leaked Micro$oft document - stuff like this convinces me that M$ are brilliant at marketing. Evil ... but brilliant!

My favourite part:

# We help those who can help us
# If they can't or won't help us
* Screw'em!
* Help their competitors instead


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 11:41 
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I think there are limits to what can be done without paying people to do the work. Maybe there aren't any examples of this from the Open Source experience, but I wonder if the only things that will get done are the things that people think are fun or that they already know how to do. If the going gets hard then maybe the developer will just bug out on the hard work, and no one will come to fill in. Kind of like with trying to put together an ecovillage and having no one volunteer to do the hard and boring tasks that need to get done because people only want to do the fun stuff because they're not getting paid to do it.

I can't think of an example, but then again it would be an absence of something and that's hard to identify.

FWIW here is a state of the art cool rendering package that is developed by one guy in NZ for free, worth hundreds at least but is free:
http://www.indigorenderer.com/joomla/in ... e&Itemid=1


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 12:19 
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If PC's were so good then why don't they have a 100% share? Plus don't forget who has the lead of the server market... in ain't M$.

The reason M$ has the desktop market share is because of its monopolization of the computer market years ago... Its just like the VHS and betaMax debate or the more recent HDDVD vs BluRay. It is the marketing that counts. Microsoft/IBM/PC's got control of the market a lot faster and more effectively than Apple did. Apple has always been about innovation and pushing the envelope. IBM/M$ were out to get the most PC's into the workplace as cheap and as quick as possible. By securing the standard platform and operating system for the enterprise market, everyone else had to follow suit to maintain compatibility. Market share does not mean quality or performance...

However now days I would rate Mac hardware AND software miles above any PC or M$ operating system...

Our current Mac (iBook G4) hasn't been switched off for over a month, we just keep it charged and shut the lid. Open the lid and it is ready to use in
less than a second. It is almost three years old and runs just as well as it did out of the box.

My brother picked up the mac for the fist time and loved it... He had no issues at all with it... except you couldn't play games. Except now you can.

We have close to 20 Macs at work, very few of which ever have issues, because they just work and keep working. We only really have PEBKAC issues...

Just the little things like the Mac adjusts automatically to my 50" Plasma, where my $4500 PC does not, and took me over an hour of messing about with it. Wireless is better and more reliable, you never have to install printer drivers, you can leave a million windows open and it doesn't blink an eyelid. No Spyware, no viruses. Sure it has a lot of updates but most are for applications, which is a good thing isn't it? Plus it doesn't annoy me every 5 seconds to restart...

Then it has the more specky stuff like cascading windows, transparency, widgets and the dashboard, exposes, time machine (backup), easy to use multiple desktops. I can install Windows XP in a virtual environment and I don't have to wait for it to load or sit there watching the bios and post booting. I click on XP virtual machine and within 2 or 3 seconds I have a usable windows machine.

Apple fits into a niche market of Power users, web design, graphic design, video editing, schools and people who don't have the first clue about maintaining and PC.

Don't forget it Mac OSX is based of UNIX, ever since Apple made the decision to start is OS from scratch. Something M$ has only just thought of, with its new Windows 7. Which is already earmarked for release... Gee, Vista had a long life. lol!


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 12:36 
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Hi DD,

Dave Donley wrote:
I think there are limits to what can be done without paying people to do the work.


I completely agree.

Fortunately many people are paid to work on Open Source software projects. The difference (compared to Proprietary software) is that when their work is done, all the source code is made freely available for others to use. It's a good way to get the less "sexy" software done.

Dave Donley wrote:
FWIW here is a state of the art cool rendering package that is developed by one guy in NZ for free, worth hundreds at least but is free


There are Open Source versions of almost all the popular Proprietary applications. Often the quality of the Open Source version is as good as the Proprietary product.

For example: (Proprietary vs Open Source)

Windoze, Mac OS X vs Linux, FreeBSD
Internet Explorer vs Firefox
M$ Office vs Open Office
Adobe Photoshop vs Gimp
M$ Access, MSSQL, Oracle vs MySQL
M$ IIE (web server) vs Apache
Outlook vs Evolution


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 13:27 
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No Spyware, no viruses.


Why do people keep perpetrating this myth.... there are Mac Viruses..... not a lot sure.... because the hackers just haven't bothered to attack such a small niche... after all it's all about "spreading" the virus and the kudos that comes with it....

The higher the infection rate... the higher the kudos..... "Hey man I wrote this really smick virus... but it only infected 100 machines before it ran out of hosts"..... just isn't gunna elevate up amongst the elite :lol:

Regardless... they do exist.... and companies do write virus scanners for Macs.... and Apple do issue patches to protected against buffer overflows and other similar "exploits"


TimC wrote:
ever since Apple made the decision to start is OS from scratch. Something M$ has only just thought of, with its new Windows 7.



Not true at all .... from Wiki... a history of DOS and Bill Gates...


Quote:
It could be said that DOS was written from scratch, although we all know that good old Bill actually brought the base code of 86-DOS (an operating system developed and marketed by Seattle Computer Products for its Intel 8086-based computer kit). Initially known as QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) the name was changed to 86-DOS once SCP started licensing the operating system.

86-DOS had a command structure and application programming interface that imitated that of Digital Research's CP/M operating system, which made it easy to port programs from the latter. The system was purchased by Microsoft in December 1980 and developed further as PC-DOS and MS-DOS.

86-DOS was created because sales of the Seattle Computer Products (SCP) 8086 computer kit, demonstrated in June 1979 and shipped in November, were languishing due to the absence of an operating system. The only software which SCP could sell with the board was the stand-alone Microsoft BASIC-86, which Microsoft had developed on a prototype of SCP's hardware. SCP wanted to offer the 8086 version of CP/M that Digital Research had announced, but its release date was uncertain.

In April 1980 SCP assigned 22-year-old Tim Paterson to develop a substitute for CP/M-86.

Paterson designed 86-DOS with the same API and most of the user commands of CP/M. At the same time he made a number of changes to address what he saw as CP/M's shortcomings. CP/M cached file system information in memory for speed, but this required a user to force an update to a disk before removing it; if the user forgot, the disk would be corrupt. Paterson took the safer but slower approach of updating the disk with each operation. CP/M's PIP command, which copied files, supported several special file names that referred to hardware devices such as printers and communication ports. Paterson built these names into the operating system as device files so that any program could use them. He gave his copying program the more intuitive name COPY. Rather than implementing CP/M's file system, he used BASIC-86's FAT filesystem to maintain compatibility with systems that SCP had already shipped

In late 1980, IBM was developing what would become the original IBM Personal Computer. CP/M was by far the most popular operating system in use at the time, and IBM felt it needed CP/M in order to compete. IBM's representatives visited Digital Research and discussed licensing with DRI's licensing representative, Dorothy McEwen Kildall, who hesitated to sign IBM's non-disclosure agreement. Although the NDA was later accepted, DRI would not accept IBM's proposal of $250,000 in exchange for as many copies as IBM could sell, insisting on the usual royalty-based plan.[1] In later discussions between IBM and Bill Gates, Gates mentioned the existence of 86-DOS and IBM representative Jack Sams told him to get a license for it.

Microsoft purchased a nonexclusive license for 86-DOS from Seattle Computer Products in December 1980 for $25,000. In May 1981, it hired Tim Paterson to port the system to the IBM-PC, which used the slower and less expensive Intel 8088 processor and had its own specific family of peripherals. IBM watched the developments daily, submitted over 300 change requests before accepting the product and wrote the user manual for it.

In July 1981, a month before the PC's release, Microsoft purchased all rights to 86-DOS from SCP for $50,000. It met IBM's main criteria: it looked like CP/M, and it was easy to adapt existing 8-bit CP/M programs to run under it, notably thanks to the TRANS command which would translate source files from 8080 to 8086 machine instructions. Microsoft licensed 86-DOS to IBM, and it became PC-DOS 1.0. This license also permitted Microsoft to sell DOS to other companies, which it did. The deal was spectacularly successful, and SCP later claimed in court that Microsoft had concealed its relationship with IBM in order to purchase the operating system cheaply. SCP ultimately received a 1 million dollar settlement payment.



You could say that the original windows GUI was written from scratch, although I've now doubt that you'll say it was a copy of the Mac.... true.... but it was written from scratch, based on extensions to DOS......

And so along blundered M$ watching Apple nibble at it's heels.... realizing that DOS couldn't be pushed much further... even with tweaks to the FAT file system => FAT32.... and struggling to produce a "stable" GUI based opsys.... that eventually became know as Windows 95.....

However it would most likely have been Windows 97 or indeed been abandoned for a port of OS-2 had it not been for a fortuitous event.... Digital Equipment Corporation's invention of the first 64-bit CPU...... at that time light years ahead of the competition and lightening fast with a deliberate ten-fold upward scalability designed into it.....

One problem existed for DEC though.... to port it's VMS system to 64-bit and Alpha chip would take some time, and sales would still be limited to enterprises... while the desktop market exploded....

Enter Dave Cutler, the architect of VMS and one of the great, if not the greatest computing minds in history....

Digital wanted an operating system for desktop machines based on it's Alpha chip... Microsoft wanted an operating system that could "look" like a Mac and could take advantage of the latest (then high speed) Intel chips.... but Intel was playing hardball with licensing....

A deal was struck..... Cutler and the entire VMS code team went to Redmond to help Microsoft get Windows into shape... eventually Windows 95....

On the contra arrangement that DEC would develope an opsys written from the ground up that wasn't bound by the limitations of DOS and could be ultimately scaled to 64-bit.... and would become the basis for Microsofts windows products based on Digital Alpha processes...

With automatic load balancing, redundant, automatic failover, clustered servers, sharing memory and raid data banks (now known as SANs)... capable of seemless operation as a single entity regardless of the location of the hardware and meeting the strictest military security ratings...

Indeed Cutler and the team embarked on a totally ambitious project and developed two versions of the operating system concurrently... a 32-bit system for Intel based systems and a 64-bit system for Digitals Alpha chip......

And so Windows NT was born.....

When Microsoft released the first version of Windows NT in April 1993, the company's marketing and public relations campaign heavily emphasized the NT (i.e., New Technology) in the operating system's (OS's) name. Microsoft promoted NT as a cutting-edge OS that included all the features users expected in an OS for workstations and small to midsized servers. Although NT was a new OS in 1993, with a new API (i.e., Win32) and new user and systems-management tools, the roots of NT's core architecture and implementation extend back to the mid-1970s.

Anyone who knows the internals of VMS ... knows how much of the VMS base code and concepts are embedded within NT and subsequently XP, or more particularly "Longhorn"

Sadly, with Digitals purchase by Compaq, problems between M$ and IBM etc etc....

Microsoft parted company and lost it's way... flogging a dead DOS based horse with Win 98 while NT languihed (despite a ten year road map when developed) ... and completely with the release of Windows ME.....

Win 2000 was a return to the roots of NT.... but it's only now that many of the load sharing, cluster principles of VMS are coming to fruition in Windows Server 2008, and "Longhorn"


Last edited by RupertofOZ on Apr 18th, '08, 15:57, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 14:55 
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I never said there were no viruses, I just said I have never had one. In the same three years that I have had this mac, I have re formatted and installed windows on my PC at LEAST 6 times. All the viruses that do exist on Macs, they all exploit security holes in third-party software like firefox, camino or other browsers. Plus it takes a very stupid person to download and run the infected files. The thing that saves Macs is that it doesn't have a Internet Explorer program tied so tightly into its front end that it becomes a backdoor for a multitude of vulnerabilities.

Windows NT just like Vista took too long to come out and by the time it was finished it was already out dated or rushed to reach stores because the consumers were getting impatient. I didn't mean the very first windows. I mean subsequent windows OS's. DOS was used for a long time, Windows 95 created the new look from 3.11, but 98, NT, ME, 2000, XP and even vista has been essentially identical. With only security and cosmetic appearance upgrades. The back-end may of changed post-DOS but the front end has stayed exactly the same. Lets not mention Windows BOB!

Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia...


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '08, 15:43 
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All the viruses that do exist on Macs, they all exploit security holes in third-party software like firefox, camino or other browsers. Plus it takes a very stupid person to download and run the infected files. The thing that saves Macs is that it doesn't have a Internet Explorer program tied so tightly into its front end that it becomes a backdoor for a multitude of vulnerabilities.

Windows NT just like Vista took too long to come out and by the time it was finished it was already out dated or rushed to reach stores because the consumers were getting impatient. I didn't mean the very first windows. I mean subsequent windows OS's. DOS was used for a long time, Windows 95 created the new look from 3.11, but 98, NT, ME, 2000, XP and even vista has been essentially identical. With only security and cosmetic appearance upgrades. The back-end may of changed post-DOS but the front end has stayed exactly the same. Lets not mention Windows BOB!

Don't believe everything you read on wikipedia...


Sorry Tim..... Should have been more specific ....

When development started in November 1989, Windows NT was to be known as OS/2 3.0, the third version of the operating system developed jointly by Microsoft and IBM.

Cutler and the team scrapped it totally and wrote NT 4.0 from scratch.... NT 3.0 was to be the fall back position if the Windows 95 (supposed to be 1993) proved non-viable....got tweaked to NT 3.1 before abandoned...

The back end didn't change "post-dos"..... DOS was deliberately abandoned, by Cutler & co....

Microsoft ressurected and carried over elements of DOS into Win 98 and butchered it all to try and incorporate "plug and play" in ME..... indeed XP still contains large elements of DOS... it's in the \Windows\Command\ folder

And from "CMD" level, you can still use the standard DOS commands if you know them... and all/most of the "hotkey" sequences are carry-overs also ... Copy "CTRL/C" ... Paste "CTRL/V" etc etc

The "true" NT thread went into Server 2000/2003/2008 etc.....

The front end is essentially the same, at least until Vista and with "Windows 7" the code will be merged much closer than it is today....

So what.... the front end of the Macs, hasn't really changed in that time either... the back end comparison would be the equivalent introduction of Unix inspired OSX.... in the same way of NT.....

Except Apple was actually behind M$ in changed base source code and moving to 64-bit....

And that's not relying on "Wiki".... that's historical fact...

If you doubt the DOS stuff.... here it is from the man himself.... Tim Paterson

http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/

and 90%+ of the exploit attacks on PC have nothing to do with IE's integration into Windows...

similarly, they usually through third party products, or user add-ons, or even M$ add-ons like Messenger....Flash, Adobe, realplayer etc....

And yep... takes a very stupid person to download and run the infected files.... and most of them come via the net or net based applications... they just don't target the Mac because it doesn't give them bragging rights...

Oh, and Tim... I'm not relying on "Wiki" when it comes to Windows NT and VMS Internals....

I contracted through my own company for fifteen years as a VMS Systems Manager... Designed, built, installed, trained and commissioned the NSW TAFE Institue structure... hold every DEC qualification then available in Australia and was one of only ten people in Australia in late 1993 DIRECTLY trained in Windows NT by the DEC code team and Microsoft....

Believe me the HAL, Hives.... registry concept... even most of the internal names in NT and since... are DIRECT copies of VMS internals....

And.... Windows NT was never written to a published or promised release date anyway.... and in fact the project was actually brought in nearly 12 months earlier than first projected... such was the vision of Dave Cutler.... Windows NT was always the desktop opsys that he wanted to right but didn't have the machines available to do so....

Consider ..... VMS ..... WNT

A truely natural... and not unintentional progression :wink:

Oh and I've never had to format due to a virus or spyware.... I use and always have used the appropriate software and principles to gaurd against them....

If M$ had stuck to the original "protected kernal" core of NT.... then most of the crap would/could never have happened... even in Vista, they still haven't got it right. :x


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