Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Or why not just ring NASAA or another certifying agency (not a BD one such as ACO!) and say I do this and I feed this and I stock at this rate and how far off am I?

The NASAA is about sustainability (that's what the S stands for) while other certifying agencies are about soil health and what not and stirring the solution 500 anticlockwise under a full moon.

The certifying agencies are governed by AQIS and some (not sure which and how many) are certified by IFOAM. NASAA is.

Looking at this site:
http://www.organicchoice.com.au/certification.php
I would guess NASAA would be the best bet for getting certification for AP.

Great suggestion. Go for it, Slane.

haha, put your foot in it now

Slane, here's some stuff which may be of interest to you....

BFA (Biological Farmers Association) .... http://www.bfa.com.au/ ... has two accreditation arms...

The ACO Australian Certified Organic (ACO - noted above)... http://www.australianorganic.com.au/

and the Organic Growers of Australia (OGA) ... http://organicgrowers.org.au/




ACO - how to get certified handbook... http://www.aco.net.au/_files/Organic%20 ... 202004.pdf

And the actual certification standards... http://www.aco.net.au/_files/Organic_St ... ISIONS.pdf

study, boys, study:
from:
http://www.bfa.com.au/_files/AOS%202006 ... 0cover.pdf

7.2.2. Hydroponic systems whereby plants are fed principally through soluble fertilisers in mediums that are devoid of a healthy and complex soil ecology are not certifiable under this Standard.
Plants shall be individually potted and pots shall be of sufficient size to enable full expansion of natural root structure.

Indicates that (not all) hydroponic systems can be certified.

frank

In the revisions the sentence
Plants shall be individually potted and pots shall be of sufficient size to enable full expansion of natural root structure.
is deleted
7.2.6. Mediums shall have contact with soil or shall be incorporated or recycled during or at the end of cropping cycle.

also read the complete chapter:
7.7. Aquaculture
not once is density mentioned there as a defined limited number.

What's holding you?

frank

7.2.6. Mediums shall have contact with soil or shall be incorporated or recycled during or at the end of cropping cycle.
to me means that mediums can be used.

frank

BFA is just one of the certification bodies in Australia and they are the biodynamic people. You know, stir your cow pooh 50 times counter clockwise in a full moon, stuff ina cows horn, plant in a field to draw the sky's power into the earth, dig up and sprinkle.

OK .. I'm not a big believer in BD so apologies to those who take it seriously. Although the local BD farms make fantastic milk.

Anyway, I'll ring NASAA if people will post here what they would like to know because I am a total newby to AP. Don't even have a prototype going yet.

I think Slane has a point.. Whats the sense in guessing and theorizing about what may be acceptable or what may not. Interpretations of rules are only interpretations, and the only way to really know, is if someone applies to a certifying body for approvals. This will require someone who can take advantage of the organic certification, in other words a commercial producer who is looking for increased margins in their products due to organic certification.. So far as I know there's no one here producing commercially, except perhaps Welshdragon..

Every certification body has different regulations. Some certifying bodies do have regulations on stocking densities, some don't, some will allow hydroponics, some not.

We can postulate and second guess our own interpretations of the rules, but whats the point, you need real world examples, you need someone in commercial production to try and go through the certifying process before you will really know what is and isn't possible.

Who knows it may be incredibly simple and all this debate about the regulation may be pointless, after all, who has actually tried?

I just had a search for hydroponic in the NASAA standard and found this
"The maintenance of soil health by ecologically sound
means is at the heart of organic production systems and consequently production systems not based
on soil (eg hydroponic systems) are not acceptable under this Standard."

So any vegies wouldn't be certifiable. The fish might be.

I think there should be another certification scheme called "ecoponics" which is basically organic hyrdoponics and some standard for the animals involved in the system.

Of you go! Someone?

Or, if you're keen, introduce some soil into your system...

The EU policy on hydroponcs is that it is not allowed in organic production. The reason given is that organic farming is a system based on the soil, in particular that plant nutrition is based on the activities of living organisms in the soil (this was discovered by the early organic researchers to be the way plants receive their nutrients in natural ecosystems).

A case would have to be made to prove that the activities of living organisms in an AP medium are equal -- or superior! -- to those living in soil.

The bit from the NASSA standards that Slane quoted is based on a paragrahp in the Australian National Standards that were determined by AQIS. Therefore all certifying bodies in Australia must incorporate this standard.

I'm with Hygicell though. We don't know so we are just guessing until someone takes one for the team and goes for it.

Since we would pass organic certification for the fish it would seem the height of beuracratic stupidity to not allow certification for the plants grown in concert with said fish.

Having said that how many tales of beuracratic stupidity can we tell.

Adrian and Slane,
TMHO you are both mistaken and you keep speculating apparently on a narrow knowledge base.
There is no need at all for ecoponics (though I initially thought so too), since I am now convinced that aquaponics can and will be certified organic in the very near future.

It is my impression that it takes more to convince you than it would take to convince a certification agency.

Over the last two years, I must have read thousands of pages concerning organic certification, and my conclusion is that chances of receiving certification based on the final recommendations are very apparent. In fact, aquaponics is described as the way to go, since it is a closed system and there is no effluent. That is a major argument.

You don't have to do all that reading, I have done it for you.
This thread here only has 10 pages, and not all posts are relevant. Take the time to carefully read through them: I have condensed in here and on other forums how I reached my conclusion.
The only document of any size I advise you to completely read is the one on the final recommendations. Read it from end to end, and you will see that it is entirely in consensus with the spirit of organic growing.

Contrary to what you think, lots of countries in the EU are accepting hydroponic techniques (though not hydroponics in general) in certified organics. Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Danemark ... do so for a fact.

Everywhere in the EU, more and more hydroponics facilities are certified. You can buy organically certified hydroponically grown fresh herbs in pots in every supermarket in Belgium. In fact, These herbs have outmarketed the traditional herbs almost completely. There is no future in traditionally grown fresh herbs in Belgium.
Same goes for Canada: at least one hydroponic grower is certified.
The US is following.
We live in a world market, so Australia will follow too.

As for the obligation to maintain "soil health by ecologically sound
means", that is a general rule in organic growing.
It doesn't mean you have to grow your vegetables in the ground, but in "soil". Sand is soil, as is gravel, both are considered as acceptable mediums for certifiable organics, as are explicitly vermiculite and perlite and any mixture of these.

Instead of considering the word soil as limited to what you find in the top tilled layer of ground of a farm, you should start to consider any mixture of natural substances which gives plants the means of finding support and balanced nutrients to grow in as soil. That is the spirit of the organic definition of soil.

And isn't that exactly how "soil" started to exist?
i.e. a sand or gravel river bank, on which through floods nutrients were deposited which gave plants all they needed to grow on: support and natural nutrients.
Soil is definitely not limited to cultivated ground.

Ringing any organism will do no good: you need something in writing.

Any one of you could send an e-mail to any or all certification agencies, stating that you have (even vague) plans for a commercial aquaponics setup and consider seeking certification. And that you would like them to consider the USDA final recommendations as rules, since at this time no clearly defined standards (seem to) exist.

It is imperative to try this ASAP for exactly that reason: once the standards are defined, it will be too late, and much more difficult to achieve any alterations.

Greetings

Frank

bacteria can write ?!?!?