Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Amoxicyllin (sp?) is used in just about all commercially produced animal feeds. Years ago it was streptomycin or penicillen. I personally doubt the real need for it in most feeds, as most animals/humans do not need a steady supply of antibiotics to stay healthy. It makes a lot more sense to just use an antibiotic whenever there is an infection, not as a preventive for them.

Thats one of the things organic certification should correct in all food supply systems. Reduce the amounts of antibiotics and heavy metals in the items we consume.

Kevin

PLEASE, let's concentrate on aquaponics organics certification?

I think this is some very critical and interesting issues hygicell, it deals with how organic certifications is so difficult to obtain but the current processes and standard used by todays farmers is disgusting and detrimental to our cause.

It gives an example of the hurdles that we have to face to beat the giants. Keep in mind too that part of being organic is creating or using purely organic foods. Amoxicyllin is one of the ingredients you have to look out for.

That is the main problem with organic certification of ANY product. There are too many governments and agencies involved at this point for there to be a universally accepted standard for organic certification to be achieved. It is sort of like taking ten blind men and having them touch an elephant. They may give you ten entirely different interpretations of what the elephant is, if they don't know it is an elephant.

Kevin

Frank, my apologies for not replying to your PM sooner. I will post here since the PM question was nearly identical to your op for this thread.

Organic Certification in AP for the time being is subjected to interpretation by inspectors of your system, and as Janet mentioned is expensive to make application and go through the process. There is no standard for fish feed to acheive organic certification. Since my last post in this forum, I have managed to secure a local private buyer of my basil and they in turn sell it at an uncertified farmer's market under the freeway in Sacramento. The market is not a certified organic market, but business is good. So why bother with the certification at this point?

I also found a market for my fish...but I learned a very valuable lesson. I will start a new thread and share.

Greetings to you as well.

Mike

I came across a few PDF files from the National Organics Standards Board. Its their work on getting organic certification for aquaculture. One is the white paper and the other is their final report to the USDA. Now whether the USDA takes action is another story.
I think the final paper would be the guildline for certifing agencies at this point. Having contacted a local certifing agency, they were unaware of any updates but are in the process of checking, plan to update their process to reflect them.
At least this will give us a better feel for what will most likely be required for AP certification.
Looks like the lowest feeding fish would be easier to cert due to the feed, a back up system would be required in case of power loss, a one year running prior to certification, no pee-ponics, no animal manure included in the feed, low stocking densities, and lots of record keeping.
Amost there folks, I uploaded the files in the files area.
Read and comment?

Problem is that you can't prove the origin of your fish food then, not without expensive analysis.
And then the food safety comes in if you want to sell, if you read the UN health organisation demands and analysises of the aquacultural domain, the principal concern that you could find in applying to aquaponics is the quality of the food since that it is the main entrance of contamination for fish products before the fish processing for sale.
Anyhow it is a good news that an organic cert maybe can be done for aquaponics in the US. Maybe they'll create an ISO norm for it then we would all have the same worldwide like ISO 22000 on food safety.
I'll have to read through your files but this point is the one I had in mind while reading your post.

I think its closer then we realize.

organic certified fish feeds are available in Europe, though very little.

You can also give your own food formula to a certified organic animal food producer, that is a second option.

Or you can grow your own fish food. Like worms.

Frank

Yes Frank on growing your own, I'm currently questioning a certifying agency how far back in the feed I would have to go. Since my fish feed higher on the food chain. Ie, do i have to show what I'm feeding my worms? Do I have to show what I'm feeding my feeder fish. If I keep Tilapia for feeder fish and feed them my organic veggies, then feed them to my Perch it closes the loop. Now the worms are another thing, will I have to use organic newspaper for their bedding?
Seems by the NOSB final paper they recognize AP as being organic and a perfered method to aquaculture. Just working out the little details with them so we come to an understanding what they will accept.

It does seem that Aquaponics should be preferred over traditional Aquaculture (at least to us since we are also looking at the greater ecological impact and how AP reduces waste products.) However, "organic certification" is really only saying that no "non organic" or chemical means were used in the growing of whatever is being certified. Organic certification does not necessarily mean sustainable practices are used. I expect that most of us believe in sustainability more and probably think the two should go hand in hand but big business and the government probably don't read the rules that way.

I'm not sure how far back you would have to certify the food chain. In soil gardening does the composted manure have to come from organically raised animals? Does the feed for those animals have to be organically grown?

Good luck with the research!

Well it seems to me others are thinking of sustainability as well in reguards to using wild caught fish for fish meal, depleating the oceans etc.
If I recall correctly the perferred fish protien for organic feed would come from fish waste that would otherwise be thrown away from processing a food fish. So that no fish were harvested strickly for fish meal.
Then of course you have one of the many points of AP itself. Knowing where your food comes from. So could it be trusted that no fish were killed to make the organic fish food? Better to close the loop entirely whenever possible?
I say close the loop one bit at a time. Perhaps our younger members will see the day of that. Small steps, just have to keep focused on the objective.

To my opinion, in the vocabulary chain (to use a comparison), the word "organic" stands way higher than the word "sustainable".

Organic implies sustainable, not (as yet) the other way round. Though it should (and probably will turn out to) work both ways.

That is supported by the rules for organic being far more strict than for sustainable.

In organic, growing your own animal feeds is always applauded. Buying feeds is accepted if there is no other option.

So newspapers as food for worms seems to be excluded. Harsh, but reasonable.

And yes, to my knowledge, even manure must come from organic animals to be allowed to use it in organic crops, even if that crop will only serve to feed "organic" animals if their end products (meat or diary or other) want to carry the organic label.

I for one applaud strict rules on this issue.

And no, animals or vegetables collected from the "wild" do not have the label organic. The label organic only stands for human produced food.

But you must be allowed to start somewhere, as everything existing is somewhat contaminated by previous practices or bears the suspicion of being so.

That is why, in most organic schemes, a period for conversion is integrated.

If for a certain vegetable no organic seeds can be obtained, you can ask to use standard seeds and convert them over time to organic.

The same would (over time) apply to i.e. worms: for where would you obtain an organic brood stock of worms?

I feel that there should be (and I believe there is) a (long) conversion period in which two steps to organic are accepted: if you feed your animals meant for organic end products (meat or diary or other) organically produced feeds, these feeds should for this conversion period be somewhat less strictly judged. But only using non-organic what is not available as organic.

So I think not strictly (but as much as possible) organically fed worms fed to fish for human consumption should be allowed carry on the label organic for this period.

We should not let go to waste all the waste that is produced already.

After this period, add another step for another period. And so on. Meanwhile, more and more waste of more and more "organic" origin will become available.

Producing your own food is a shortcut to get there.

Frank

Does anyone know where things stand on this issue in Australia? Has there been any movement in the last six months?

I was talking to a Hydroponics grower at a farmers market a week or so ago and he said that he couldn't get organics cert because he didn't use soil to grow his crops. Even if he used orgainc sources (worm teas, manure, etc) to produce his nutrient solutions.

This idelogical objection to hydroponics seems a bit ridiculous to me since it would even exclude the certification of things like water cress and other water plants. What about wasabi which grows naturally in gravel with water flowing through it?

Stuart Same goes for the rabbit producers, forced to use cages legally, and big ones too, yet disallowed organic cert because they cage their animals...

The line where traditional/cruel/organic(as it is in the dictionary) is, is blurred beyond belief, and is very subjective.