Tilapia For Us !!! (USA)

janethesselberth

Probably increasing the day length...I'd be interested in hearing what the teacher says.

boyd3@iavbbs.com

janetpelletier wrote:

Hi All,
An upate on the quest for tilapia:

Valmeyer is a high school aquaculture program. I had a very nice chat with Howard Heavner who runs the program (gosh, I wish they had a program like this when I was in school.) I learned some stuff:

- His tilapia were originally from Til-Tech and were supposed to be all male. (Genetically Male Tilapia, not hormone treated.) It turned out that there were actually a few females in the batch, and that's what they've been breeding from.

- He is very hesitant to ship in cold weather. He doesn't have experience doing it, and doesn't want to put the $100 shipping charge at risk. I understand his point. He would be very happy to supply any of us with tilapia, and will ship when Illinois night-time temperatures are at least 50. (I didn't ask about natives.) He is cautious about what the fish will be used for--ie, he wants to make sure we are complying with local regulations, and not releasing tilapia into the waterways.

- I asked what natives he felt grew the best. He liked largemouth bass (but it is more a 2-year fish), and catfish. He had a batch of half-grown hybrid bass die on him due to stress from moving. They apparently are nervous at certain points in their life. He felt that the bluegills don't grow out well. He has no experience with yellow perch.

- He also suggested Northeastern Aquatics in New York (845-876-3983) as a place that might deal at a small scale. They have only natives to my knowledge. I left a message for them to call me.

Given that I want my fish well before June, I am left with Til-Tech and Miami Aquaculture. They are the only two other companies that responded to my inquiries. Given that I definitely (not just probably) want some females to choose broodstock from, that leaves Miami Aquaculture http://www.miami-aquaculture.com/lvstk.htm . Their minimum order is 150 fingerlings (at $1/fish), with shipping and packaging adding about $112.

I will be ordering some Rocky Mountain White tilapia from them Monday or Tuesday next week (depending on whether they are open on MLK Day). Let me know if you want in on the order, and how many you want, and we can split the shipping. I can hold -some- fish for folks if you need a little time. I prefer that you pick up the fish from me rather than me attempting to ship in the dead of winter.

A lifesaver! Thanks!

janethesselberth

Ho ho ho...we have success!!! Or at least the beginnings.

I got tired of the chosen male just not doing his job. (It would never be the females' fault. It's only because he's a brute. Or ugly. Or doesn't complement their new dress.) So Sunday afternoon, I netted out 3 fish from the main tank, (trying to select 1 male and 2 females) and put them in the other breeder tank with a new Love Shack and hides. It's now Tuesday afternoon, and there has been some action. One of the fish was showing an ovipositor earlier (whooot whooot!), and when I checked on them after a couple of hours, she had -that- expression. You know the one. Puffed out throat and tight lips. (Strangely, the male did, too.) I got a glimpse of something in her mouth, but didn't want to get too close.

I'm still unsure of the gender of the third fish, but I suspect we'll know within the week. I'm thinking Mr. Hubba Hubba may have just lost his job. I did not trim the lip of the newest stud, and atm he's so gentle that perhaps he can keep it.

emsjoflo

I'm trying a second batch myself. Just one male and one female. This morning before I went to work, I noticed some "shivering" on the part of the male. Perhaps.....

janethesselberth

OK, very strange things are going on in the new breeder tank. I selected one fish that I was certain was male (by behavior), one that was almost surely a female (by inspection of private parts), and one that was 75%-chance female (by inspection). I'm not very good at sexing them by inspection, but behavior is fairly reliable for me. In the tank, I also believe I see a difference in mouth-size. Males have wider mouths.

I saw spawning yesterday, but noticed that both the male and female had their throats puffed. I didn't linger as I didn't want to disturb the happy couple. Today I got in for a better look, and found that both the female and male (?) were incubating eggs. :shock:

So who's making odds:

1) Janet can't sex fish, even when they're dancing, and she oughta know that by now. Obviously there was a spawning Monday too, and she just missed it.

2) It really is a male incubating with his female.

I know that in some species, the male will incubate (rather than the female), but I wasn't aware of any where they both incubated.

GotFish?

Maybe it was such a big hatch they had no choice but to share the responsibility. Neat if they are male and female.

Amacafish

It can happen that a couple of fish won't breed until another male joins the party, it creates a demonstration of power and prettyness that the single male doesn't event try to do when he's on his own (how far are we from the fish... :wink:

) usually seeing two males fight stimulates the female for the spawning, it could be the explanation why it worked so fast. I will have a look in my books about male parental care in tilapia.

Specially if the tank is big enough for the unchosen male to find a place to hide and will create a form of stress to the parents that then take more care of their babies, depends aswell on the aggressivity of the fish.

For transportation of fish, the best is to transport the eggs as they survive better and take less room, and continue developping as long as temperature is stabilised (small foam box with a chemical heating, a little pot of butter for stabilising and onely O2 in the bag).

For tilapia you can make an incubator with a slow upwelling current in a tray with very fine mesh on the bottom, it gently lifts the eggs from the bottom and does the same as the female does with ventilating the eggs.
I can have more info if you need it, since it is the same technique they use to mass produce the great lake african cichlids.
amacafish

janethesselberth

Hi Amacafish!
That's a neat idea for the incubator. I'll have to think how I could construct that if I need it. Would fine air bubble give enough circulation? Or maybe use a very small power head? (Like would be used with an undergravel filter.)

I'm going to let the fish keep the eggs for now and see how they do with them. I don't need a lot of fry, just 30 every six months or so. Other tilapia of mine did raise 2 successful spawns before this. They are good parents. Actually, the unchosen male is slightly aggressive towards the two with eggs right now. That will change as the eggs mature. Females with new fry are mean! I will check on them later this morning after the kids have gone to school. There are two good hides plus the spawning area has a large flower pot. The tank is 190 liters (50gal). I could put another hide in, but would have to be careful not to scare anyone or they spit the eggs out.

I don't understand your use of "a little pot of butter" for stabilising. I understand the rest about transporting. Would you explain?

Amacafish

I'm sorry i've got so many infos to write that sometimes i'm not to clear and have a tendancy to add every single bit in a very long sum and sentence. :roll:

I'll try to do better this time:
In fact the pot of butter will be a heat battery since it will melt with the heat at the start of the transport and take up so much energy to get back to solid form that it will smoother out the decrease of the temp when the chemical heating reaction has finished.
I think it's called thermal capacity, it's the physical energy need of a material to elevate or decrease it's temp. Grease is very good for thermal capacity, since it will need a lot energy output to decrease it's thermal energy capacity. It's on the same principle as the thermic mass of water.
I might not be very clear in my meaning but wikipedia should explain it better than me.
I'll get a hand on my incubator plans and post them on your topic. It is very simple to make and works with gravity fed flow.
I really like this forum, just can't stop...

janethesselberth

OK, the kids have gone and I went in to check the breeders. Only one fish is holding eggs this morning, and she has claimed the flower pot as hers. She is gently nudging the other 2 fish away from her area. I'm now not sure which one was the confused male, nor whether the third fish is male or female. I guess what is important is simply that this trio has a batch of eggs. I will just monitor the situation to make sure there is no excessive violence. I'm afraid to try to net fish out of there right now because that could scare the female and she could spit the eggs. I really would like to get another batch of fry going here.

janethesselberth

Ahhh...a Better Butter (BTU?) Battery. I get it! That is so clever!!

Amacafish

It is not my ideas that I say but all that I've read, I've read tons and tons of books and just mix the different ideas I find.
Sorry for the unusual language concepts, but my brain is to much used to french language concept so it makes it sometimes difficult to explain things even if I use the proper english words.
I've got a friend who catches his fish in the middle of the night with a torch lamp so that they are not to frightened and to fast for the net (actually it would be the same for me... :wink:

), he does that just before the females release their babies in the main tank, usually if it is done by surprise you can make them spit in a bucket and transfer the babies in a small cage (better feeding rates if concentrated in a tankwith a high water quality) and put the female back in the main tank.
The only thing is not doing it on every generation, because some cichlid breeders have annihilated the parental care of the fish instinct for some species, makes it impossible to get it back once it is gone, it is said for some breeds of apistogramma ramirezi, actually not a scientific proof of it but I've heard it a few times from amateur aquarium fish breeders.
Hope it helps

janethesselberth

Your English is very very good, Amacafish. I had just never heard the idea of using butter (or anything) to absorb and release heat. Hmmm... I think I should market the BBB (Better Butter Battery (TM)) and charge 10 times the price of butter.

Amacafish

Then take some proper farm sea salted butter (i've been selling some on summer job and eating a few kilos with a half baguette, cheese and a glass of wine every morning for breakfast: frenchy side coming up here) so that we can have fish in the fish tanks and eat a nice sandwich while waiting for the fish to get big enough to eat them to...
The idea has been used by english men who were smuggling rainbow fish eggs out of australia through the mail

emsjoflo

If I'm understanding correctly, the butter is being used as a phase-change material or PCM. It's melting point (or softening point) is close to room temperature -- and though the specific heat of oil is much lower than water, the latent heat of fusion is relatively high. Thus it can buffer temperature swings. Interesting concept -- I may have to incorporate the idea into some other areas.

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Tilapia For Us !!! (USA)

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