Backyard Aquaponics
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I have alot of perpetual motion machines in my house. I just connect them to this plug in my wall and just keeps going

RS_ HOW do these things make the battery better ?
what does the waveform produced do to the battery plates?

At least give us some theory on how it is supposed to work...

SuperVeg,

Standard Battery chargers use normal DC current flow backward through the battery at 14V to 16V, which will allow Sulfanation to form/grow on the Plates over time, as the battery is charged and discharged, decreasing the plates surface area, until the plate material's surface molecules are too big to interact with the electrolyte, and the battery will not receive a charge any more and is dead, and needs replacing. Standard Desulfanators, use pulses of CURRENT at a voltage of 14V to 16V, and will help KNOCK the Sulfate off the plate, and it ends up in the bottom of the battery, and the plate gets thinner, but has a cleaner surface with smaller molecules for the electrolyte to interact with.

There are several versions of Bedini Technology.

In the SSG (Simplified School Girl) model, The coil is pulsed with Voltage causing a magnetic field to build up as current flows, the same as in any coil. Then when the switch is opened, the magnetic field collapse's, and creates a extremely short duration Recoil Spike of extremely high voltage & very small current flow, the same as any coil. The difference is what the SSG circuit does with that Sharp Spike of Voltage. Almost all modern coil/motor driver circuits, shunts that high voltage spike to the ground rail, or the positive rail, through free wheeling diodes, to keep that spike from killing the drive Transistors, Mosfets, IGBT's, etc.... Engineers do their Best, to get rid of that Recoil Spike. The Bedini SSG diverts that High Voltage Recoil Spike through a diode into a charging battery, that is NOT in the same current LOOP as the drive battery / power supply. Thus the charging battery is seeing a almost current less High Voltage Spike, that forces the ions in the electrolyte to move backward, without using much current. Then there is some dead time while the circuit resets for the next coil pulse, and during this dead time, the ions in the battery electrolyte are still moving backward, but before they can stop moving, the coil produce's the next Recoil Voltage Spike, that keeps the ions moving backward.
This charges the battery, without using much current. The process with many charge discharge cycles, Replates the battery plates with smaller and smaller surface molecules called Dentrites, that look like tiny fern leafs, or fractals that look the same at different magnifications, GROWING on the plate. This increases the surface area that the electrolyte can interact with, thus increasing the state of charge, so that the battery can last FAR LONGER at a given Amp Load. The smaller plate surface molecules also mean that it takes FAR LESS time to charge the battery back up.
The smaller plate surface molecules, also mean a Higher 4 Hour Standing Voltage.
This process with many many charge cycles will make the plate surface molecules growing on the plate, Smaller than when NEW, thus the battery has MORE Discharge Time than when NEW....!!!!
Once SSG charged Batterys have been Conditioned, you Never want to put them on a standard DC charger, as that will undo the conditioning. So you want to charge them with a SSG model from then on. Because the charger Never lets the plate molecules get very big, the battery will Never Ware Out and Die by Sulfanation



The SG-Cap Pulser (School Girl) model, works similar to the SSG, but is very different.

When the coil magnetic field collapse's, and creates a extremely short duration Recoil Spike of extremely high voltage & very small current flow, the same as any coil. The SG-Cap Pulser model has a 3rd winding, that collects the Recoil Spike, and diverts it through a FWBR into a collection Cap that fills up extremely fast, because of the extremely high voltage, up to 20-25V Then the Cap Pulser's semiconductor switch, SHARPLY Dumps the Cap to the charging Battery, down to the battery's voltage, or a volt or 2 over the battery Voltage, then the Cap Recharges up from the charging battery's Voltage, Vs up from empty, taking less time to charge to full. Once again, the Sharp Cap Discharge Pulse is forcing the Ions in the electrolyte to move backward, and once again you have Dead time while the cap fills back up, and when the cap dumps again, it keeps the ions moving backward, charging the Battery.
And once again, the charging battery is NOT in the same Current LOOP as the driving battery/power supply. Because the charger Never lets the plate molecules get very big, the battery will Never Ware Out and Die by Sulfanation

With The SG-Cap Pulser model, you can use the battery on a standard charger, such as in your automobile, and it will hold the conditioning for a lot longer than the SSG model. The battery will eventually lose its conditioning, and start Sulfanation again, needing a SG-Cap Pulser treatment every so often, to keep it in shape. Or use the SG-Cap Pulser all the time the same as a SSG.

Then there is The Bedini/Cole, bipolar motor driver circuit, that can be configured as a 1/2 H bridge driver, or a Full H bridge driver, and are much like any other H bridge motor drivers, with the difference being, that a FWBR is put across the drive motor Coil, to collect that extremely short duration Recoil Spike of extremely high voltage & very small current flow, into a Cap Pulser, to charge Battery's with, in the same manner as the SG-Cap Pulser model. And there are NO Free wheeling Diodes to shunt that high voltage spike to the ground rail, or the positive rail to get rid of it, as most modern H Bridge motor drivers do.

There are several other variations, that I will not go into here.

All of these Energizer circuits and motor configs, are Patented by Bedini/Energenx
"Instead of conventional constant current or constant voltage DC charging, batteries charged by electrical pulses with specific shape, frequency, and magnitude, to trigger improved electrochemical energy charging in the battery. Because of this, the life of new batteries can be dramatically extended and the capacity of older batteries, previously unable to be adequately charged by conventional means, can be increased."

The commercial models and Kits are sold here:
Renaissance Charge
http://www.r-charge.net/Battery-Chargers_c_16.html
tell them RS sent you......
There is a OZ source, but I cant think of the URL at this time.

I hope this helps you, and everyone else, understand the difference between standard DC chargers, even smart chargers, Standard Desulfanators, and the Bedini ENERGIZER'S

RS

A place I used to work for is making battery desulfanators for a truck fleet, same principle, pulses the battery with high voltage spike to supposedly reduce the crystal? size on the plates...
They just designed a solid state version though, no motors and crap like that...
The motor in these designs seem to be the way inventor thought to create the flyback pulse, not the only way to do it he probably was not an electronics guy

The company is still unsure whether it actually works or not

I still find it hard to believe the battery can actually be charged efficiently like that, it seems not a lot of total energy is going into the battery... However it works or not, it cannot violate the conservation of energy laws...

Thanks for the info..

Superveg,

The Bedini/Energenx patents cover the solid state versions, as well as the motor versions....

They need to be careful to not infringe on the Bedini/Energenx patents..... But there may be other way's create the same effect, without infringing ......

Mr Bedini is a Modern Day TESLA, an Electronics Engineer Extraordinaire, and has done electronics work for the Navy, etc....... He is not just some electronics guy..... as that probably describes me, but defiantly not him.........

The battery is already full of electrons, it does NOT need any more stuffed into it by a DC Current............

all a battery needs is the High V almost current less spike, to make the IONS flow backwards, and it will charge nicely....... that is Not a Lot of WATTS, as compared to a Constant Current flow.


"However it works or not, it cannot violate the conservation of energy laws..."

That Is CRAP, HOW DO THEY KNOW, when ALL the circuits they describe, is in normal symmetrical equilibrium (Closed Loop). So when you compare a system that is in normal symmetrical equilibrium with a Unsymmetrical system that is completely out of equilibrium (Unclosed Loop or Alternate closed loop ), and is drawing extra energy in from the environment surrounding the system, all the School Book's fall short. And is an area of study that is sorely lacking in our schools today... They never teach that the Heaviside current flow of the aether around a conductor. Is a million times the Polyting (sp) current flow of the aether that is intercepted by a conductor as electron current in the conductor. One of the trick's, is to increase the receptional cross section of the conductor by pushing a inductor out of equilibrium..... I will not go into this further here, as all this can be studied in Tom Bearden's various Books and Papers, and several other PPL's Paper's that have been published lately (10yr's or so) if you only cared enough to study something that the mainstream schools ignore.......

I don't care, I don't work there. And its easy enough to get around most patents..


all a battery needs is the High V almost current less spike, to make the IONS flow backwards, and it will charge nicely....... that is Not a Lot of WATTS, as compared to a Constant Current flow.


"However it works or not, it cannot violate the conservation of energy laws..."

That Is CRAP, HOW DO THEY KNOW, when ALL the circuits they describe, is in normal symmetrical equilibrium (Closed Loop). So when you compare a system that is in normal symmetrical equilibrium with a Unsymmetrical system that is completely out of equilibrium (Unclosed Loop or Alternate closed loop ), and is drawing extra energy in from the environment surrounding the system, all the School Book's fall short. And is an area of study that is sorely lacking in our schools today... They never teach that the Heaviside current flow of the aether around a conductor. Is a million times the Polyting (sp) current flow of the aether that is intercepted by a conductor as electron current in the conductor. One of the trick's, is to increase the receptional cross section of the conductor by pushing a inductor out of equilibrium..... I will not go into this further here, as all this can be studied in Tom Bearden's various Books and Papers, and several other PPL's Paper's that have been published lately (10yr's or so) if you only cared enough to study something that the mainstream schools ignore.......[/quote]

Lets assume that this magic technology draws in energy from thin air, which is what you are suggesting. Generally when something benefits society, the technology/knowledge ends up becoming adopted by everyone (in the long run)
Sometimes this does not happen, but generally only in the case of a massive campain by those of infinite (effectively) cash and government support (medical industry is a good example, even better, keynsian economics !!). In these cases if you are going to make a claim like this, even if most people won't believe you, you not only need to have ridiculouls amounts of proof that it actually is true. You also need to have hard evidence of this knowledge being suppressed by very powerful "others".
In these cases you also tend to get an overreaction of the mainstream to officially discredit such "knowledge", and often repeatedly, to reinforce this "untruth" on the general public.

Such magic technology would truly be revolutionary...

SuperVeg,

Not thin air..... it's the aether / Space Time that supply's the extra energy.... and as far as that go's, the aether supply's ALL the electrical energy that flows in a wire of any kind......

I personally do not have proof of suppression, but there are plenty of books that talk about this subject.....

Read Tom Bearden's books, or web site http://www.cheniere.org/

In the US alone, there are over 20K patents that are suppressed because they are deemed a National Security threat. This is a Fact. if they would develop just a few of these technology's, we would never have to burn another gal of gas, or train load of coal, or contaminate the planet with radiation from Nuke fuel.

Some of the new Physics being developed:
Newly developed Grand Unified Field Theory by AIAS Director Dr. Myron Evans provides solid mathematical grounding for the extraction of free EM energy from the scalar curvature.
http://www.aias.us/

Aloha Gentlemen,

I thought I would say a few comments on the whole Bedini-Bearden shenanigans.

I have personally talked with John (face to face), I find him to be genuine and quite a cool dude as well. He doesn't seem shady or even remotely fake, and he really cares what people have to say.

However, I don't agree with everything he has to say and definitely don't agree with 1% of what comes out of Tom Beardens mouth.

I have built a monopole motor and have done extensive analysis on the electrical functions of the machine, although I have yet to do much work on the mechanical analysis. It is quite the strange apparatus. The claims made by the inventor are correct it will, if built well (if you build it like shit, it will obviously work like shit), charge a larger battery to peak capacity before the primary will deplete its stored energy.

With that said I don't necessarily agree with the way John describes the interaction between machine and battery.

My engineering knowledge comes from the works of Charles Proteus Steinmetz, Oliver Heaviside, JJ Thompson, LV Blume and AE Kennally. NOT from Einstein relativity or from quantum car mechanics.

Vector Fields:

There were considered to be three main fields that composed electricity; The Electric Field (as POWER, E*I, not voltage, you could say the poynting vector S represents the vector magnetude of the electric field), The Magnetic Field as Phi, in webers and the Dielectric Field as Psi, in coulombs.

Voltage is the magnitude of the sum of the Electro-Static Potential (stationary dielectric energy, in coulombs per farad) and the Electro-Motive Force (moving, accelerating or decelerating, magnetic energy, in webers per second) seen in any circuit condition. EMF and ESP are NOT the same thing. ESP is like potential energy, EMF is like kinetic energy, they can be made equal in magnitude but not in kind.

Current is the magnitude of the sum of the Displacement Current (motive dielectric energy, in coulombs per second) and the Conduction Current (a constant circulating current, in coulombs per second or Henries per weber). Dielectric energy is the primary agent of the Electric Field, Magnetism is a secondary effect caused from the movement of dielectric energy, coulombs per second engenders the dissipation of dielectric energy and subsequently the formation of magnetic energy.

The Ionic Theory:

Electrons were thought to be an end-terminal to the lines of dielectric energy (with 1000 lines terminating on an electron). More specifically a negative end-terminal that is free to move in media that we call conductors. It should be noted that electrons are NOT the only carriers of charge, protons and ions can also "carry" charge, (or more aptly end-terminals for dielectric field lines) but they are the most abundant and most free to move, and hence our obsession on their usage in conversations dealing with electricity.

My theory:

If you use IMPULSE (not "pulse") discharges of a single energy source, L or C, you will engender a special form of wave called an impulse wave, which technically can't be called a wave if it can't be reflected (see the works of CP Steinmetz for more on this topic). These "waves", as we will hence forth call them, are unique in that they are NOT DC or AC but instead are called "impulse currents", now termed IC. Impulse currents are single energy transients that have extremely non linear, asymptotic, magnitudes, for a collapsing inductor, voltage, as an EMF, is proportional to the time rate of collapse or webers per second. The duration, however, is related to the storage capacity, L in henries and the magnetude of dissipation, r in ohms. Where; L/r=tau, 5*tau=T, T=period or duration. The same concepts apply for a capacitive impulse discharge, which John also uses. For brevity I won't delve into that topic.

The motor is designed to be a mechanical oscillator for the production of impulse currents, either inductive or capacitive.

Now with the basics laid out, an electron and ion both have mass, if we apply a sharp impulse, via inductive or capacitive methods, we will send them flying and they can not stop until their mechanical energy has been expended, momentum is our friend. Note that the fields lines terminate on the intermolecular corpuscles (see JJ Thompson), i.e. ions and electrons, they also want to contract to a length that is ideally a singularity, the lines however are fixed onto the protons of the opposing bounding conductor so they can't move. The electrons and ions are free to move, a special property they have. Thus the only way the lines of induction can constrict is to PULL the free end-terminals (ions/electrons) towards the other side.

In essence this explanation obviates relativity and quantum mechanics to the garbage can. Going old school can make some concepts much simpler. However, there are certain concepts that require more modern views, so don't apply this approach unscrupulously.

Garrett M

[edit from the future - this is not in any way a response to garrettm4's first post that happens to be awaiting moderation. It was written before it but you know how it is when someone posts between when you write and someone else does. Sometimes you just post anyway ]

There a few logical fallacies that are important in any debate and always worth remembering.

Here is just one of the many that fill this thread.

This is not a reflection on anyone's argument, and I am constantly guilty of this in my own domestic life.

Dont judge me.

Please, please, please read that last line again.

I also try to do my best to not drop them into my arguments to fill holes.

Logical fallacies are really important and I urge everyone on all sides to consider them. Not just here, but everywhere, all through their lives. Its always possible to prove people wrong if you have a proof. Sometimes it can take a while because some of us resist new or different ideas. I know this is true, because I happen to be one of the resistors.

But that's ok, that just means I'm not gullible. But I will come around in the face of undeniable argument.

But being aware of these logical fallacies always remain important, no matter what the subject happens to be.

----------------------------
argumentum ad populum

Just because a shi[p]load of people say something doesnt mean it's true.

----------------------------
applying it


An opinion held by the majority isn't, by the fact of it's majority, a reason to think it's in some way more valid than an other opinion ....ever. The two different attributes, truth, and popularity, are simply not connected in any demonstrable way.

It's often the case, that both sides of an argument use this argument to counter the other.

If at any time anyone in this argument has done this, don't just ignore it. Bring it to the fore, and say ...

"I would like to withdraw the comment I said that calls on the logical fallacy "argumentum ad populum". It's been brought to my attention, and although I used this device unintentionally, I would rather be known as someone who uses rational argument to put my case. Please don't judge me, but please disregard any argument I may have offered that uses this device", and move on with the discussion. "I have many other reasons for believing what I do and would like them in the spotlight rather than anything offered by a logical fallacy."

I'm almost certain anyone who acknowledged this, would gain the respect of everyone on this forum, regardless of what else they think.

I would certainly respect anyone who acknowledges an error, and really struggle to see beyond the point in an argument where someone knows they have said something meaningless, but doesn't fix it.

To be honest I could really use a hint as to who here can be reasoned with.

Those on the scientific method side will sometimes use peer review as an argument for why they are right, and those on the Bedini side will sometimes list people who have actually made the devices. Neither are an indicator of reality or truth. They are both simply lists of people who support one side or another.

Meaningless.

Sorry if I offend either side, but meaningless none the less.

It's easy to fix..

Truth comes from tests, comparisons, and meaningful, useful, predictions, able to consistently predict the outcomes of future trials, or the behaviours of real life products in the real world. Not fuzzy feelings of the gut, or anything else. Not because someone has "Professor" before their name, not because Hawkings said it, but because it proves to be a reality. a control, and a test create an interesting outcome requiring further investigation. A control tells us nothing. A test tells us nothing.

The proof is in the mixing and re-mixing of the two.

This is not a claim of one vrs the other, but just that the devices of argument used are not meaningful to the argument in any way.


--------------------------

and this on patents (sorry to anyone who cant separate three different topics within the same post)

Anyone can get a patent on anything. I can patent a Bluggckloe anti gravity device every 20 minutes for the rest of my life, as long as each design doesn't impinge on the rights of a previous. One can have a square base, another a stick that goes up and down. It doesn't matter. It also doesn't mater if it works. That's not what patents do. They don't decide what works, they protect the financial rights to intellectual property.

A patent isn't creditability, it grantees a right of sole production and distribution for profit. That's what the a patent is for. Financial protection. There are hundreds of thousands of patents that do nothing. From old moustache twirlers to dimple creators, genital enlargers, and (I think all but one on the market today) facial moisturisers.

But...

The reality is that many people think a patent DOES give something credibility.

A patent doesn't mean you have something. It just protects someone else from profiting from the production of the described thing. That's what patents do. That's ALL that patents do. That's all there were ever meant to do.

-------------------------------------------

And this....

Without a doubt, the greatest threat to the united state's national security is energy independence. They wage war over energy security all the time. For very good reason. They would be crazy as a nation not to. A secure and endless (as can be) source of energy is vital to national security.

If someone comes up with a car that runs on belly button lint, or water, the USA would have to be very, very anti-USA to not subsidise it as much as they could afford, and deliver one to every household just as soon as they could.

USA national security = independence from other countries = freedom from oil dependence = adoption of future tech1 = lint/water base cars

and heaps more stuff I want to say....





The thing I am most proud of in my life is that my mind can be changed.

The patent policy is to not accept a perpetual motion patent without a working model because they understand that it is impossible. First rule of thermodynamics, take a math class, you can't take a 1 and move it around until it becomes anything but a 1. (If it can't work in something as simple as such a basic math concept the complexity of various forces will be a bitch for some people.)

Also, don't present bullshit conspiracy as a fact without providing the proof. 20k suppressed patents on national security, what are these how to build a pipe bomb to blow up your corporate office? *frack* off

Tesla is awesome, comparing Bedini to Tesla is a sin.

A favorite free energy theory I've heard is attempting to amplify/harness the frequency of the earth in a usable form.

**Disclaimer** I know little about Bedini just replying to what I read regarding free energy BS based on sound Physics, Chemistry and Mathematic skills.