Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

How times have changed, how sad that many now uphold the exact opposite position and enshrine it with a false venier of history to legitimise it

Thanks Jez.
could not have said it better...

Back in college I lived on the Navajo reservation, between Tuba City and Four Corners. I learned so much from this experience. It truly shaped much of how I see civilization and the American values that are forced on a "free" society. First, I have great respect for the Hopi and Navajo people and thier values and culture. The Hopi were great horticulturalists and masters as subsistence living. In fact we could have a wonderful discussion about lessons learned from the Hopi. If you want to learn how to grow corn in sand. I digress....

http://www.cpluhna.nau.edu/People/hopi.htm

The Hopi clan way of life.....

http://iweb.tntech.edu/kosburn/history- ... lture.html

The Navajo were equally skilled farmers, but were forced into Hopi lands during the "reorganization" of native peoples during the 19th and early 20th century. To this day the Navajo and Hopi live in an eternal land conflict, both unhappy with what they have been apportioned by a third party. The only reason this battle hasn't erupted in violence is because neither cultre values violence or retaliation. It is well speculated and held as a native belief that the US government was hoping for a war between the two tribes to eliminate one or both.

I couldn't and still can't see how technology has improved their lives. In fact, most native people would say technology has destroyed thier way of life. No longer able to live off the land, their people must go into town and find counter-cultural jobs that they never wanted in the first place but now must take to survive. Thier people are forced now to migrate to cities for education and chose a lifestlyle of displaced labor and wage earnings to make ends meet. It is no surprise that the number of post graduate educated native peoples are retuning to the reservations and to a simpler life of subsistence living, are on the rise! Some Hopi Traditional leaders have taken to direct actions of sabotage against signs of modernity by tearing down phone & electricity lines, silently living in isolation in villages where signs state village is closed to whites. Is this no surprise?

This same thing is happening in China and other third world countries. Indigenous cultures are being displaced by a "free market economy" driven by consumerism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumerism

For a great insight into the global indigineous culture visit:

http://www.turtleisland.org/front/_front.htm

To say: "as long as I have my own and am happy and what you do is of no consequence", is both selfish and socially irresponsible. We all have a collective duty to work together for peace and prosperity for all peoples. We are not mutually exclusive and as humans we suffer when our brother and sister suffer.

I am ultimately a neo malthusian because I believe we can do better as a species with subsistence living than we can by displacing culture with technology and economic dependence.

Yes, there are some technological things I would like to hang on to like solar power, wind power, global communication, and very select transportation that is mostly localized if anything, but if that had to be sacraficed to make this work, then I can do without.

Ahh MF... herein your last post you at last touch the raw nerve of truth....

... nearly exposing the historical myth and hypocracy that blinds us to the truth of why our culture has become so desperatly devoid of morality and ethics... why ultimately our current industrial/capitalist structures are inherently flawed....

The fundamental question that we refuse to see and answer is the question of whether or not our industrial system could have grown and become what it is with out the deliberate conquest, slaughter, enslavement, invasion. annexation, and cultural genocide of peoples in other countries....

An attitude of colonialism that we purpertrate to this day, with the same callous racist based disrespect for "the natives", "the bloody savages"...

the disrespect for and non compliance with environmental values that we would apply within our own countries but blissfully ignore while we pillage the resources of another to maintain the fundamental neccessity for growth that props up both our economies and life-style....

Our modern "capitalist" systems have become what they are almost solely through the use of conquest, force and enslavement....

Yet we refuse to acknowledge our history and allow politicians, the media and vested interests to whip up illusions and pretences based on fear, religion and greed to blind us to the reality.

nicely said!

Ojectivism: the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or "rational self-interest;" that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual human rights, embodied in pure, consensual laissez-faire capitalism.

This is clear hypocracy ^ Ayn Rand did not do her homework. Karl Marx correctly identified the flaws in Capitalism. Not to trumpet the communist manifesto....I think any pre industrial philosopher could not have predicted how much influence technology would have on government systems. However, he was right about several things of which Rand overlooked.



Let us not forget the oppression of communisim and how they effectivley enslaved thier own people for industrial pursuits, specifically Russia and China. But could any of these industrial systems progressed without the enslavement or conquest of others? Only if ownership were truly shared, and then I doubt there would have been enough consensus among the masses to do something collectively like say....build the Egyptian Pyramids or kill 6 million Jews. There had to be a cult like belief among the masses to acomplish these things, (thus the mentality of consumerism)and a dominant heirarchy to oversee the mission (corporations and republican governments)and sell these beliefs to the people. So, no the progress of industry is hinged on the leadership of few and the perceived power of those few to convince the apathetic many of the direness of action toward a specific cause, be it foriegn or domestic policy.



We should be careful here because there are opposing bloody savages on both sides of this earth who would like nothing more than to take out the other in the name of God. Can you believe in this day and age we are still experiencing Holy Wars?? There are evil people on both sides themselves consumed by idealism and use violence to control themselves and thier enemy. More than "us" are being mislead.



Life-style is the key. Many of us in the world are sick with consumerism mentality and the disposability of old technology. Can you remember when you had to hand crank a phone? or dial a rotary phone? Or stand close to the phone because it had a cord? or had to hold a heavy cordless phone? or had to keep your mobile phone in a shoulder case? or.... the point is....one thing leads to the other. It is a continuum trap... that leads to the next best thing and the lifestyle to maintain it and the gradual acceptance of any means neccesarry to hold onto it.




I'm in no way a religious man, but I go back to the story of Adam and Eve as analagous to this discussion. Once knowledge and awareness was obtained by mankind, there was no going back. God told them not to eat from that tree because knowledge and awareness had dire consequences and great social responsibility. Thus the creation of law, to instruct mankind on how to avoid the trap. But in the end many ignored the fundamental principles laid out at the beginning of man's progress into modern civilization. There are many ways, perhaps Ayn Rand is one, but I don't subscribe to one way. I think there are many ways to aqcuire enlightmentment, but I tend to reject monetheistic religions based on do or die principles. Any religious, organizational, philosophic or spiritual rigidity has to be viewed with skepticism, otherwise we get caught in the trap.

Wow! some deep, thought-provoking discussion going on here. Mutual respect is keeping this thread from becoming a flame-war -- Thanks!
Truth is truth -- whether it is stumbled upon, taught, or methodically researched -- but precious however it is gained.

A man of few words.... well put.

On a personal note this off AP topic amoung people I respect is the best thing that has happened to me for a while. My wife and I belong to an objectivist study group. That has turned into a social club with sparse philosophy component. The last meeting was a birthday party for a core member and kareoke singing. Not worth the carbon credits to drive there. Another issue is 'singing to the chior'. Unless we dig in deep, we just keep saying 'we agree and we are sooo right'. No chance of that here! It is great to do this!

Rupert, you are absolutely correct. Let me take the time to put together some definitions (no small task that will take a few days). I am going to do some more electrical work on the AP today. AP is simple is fine unless you want to measure and quantify what is happening in the system. To collect the data I need miles of CAT5 cable, sensors, actuators, and software to handle the measurements and results. Read 'not so simple or fast. This debate is so interesting I have slowed my work to tend this!
So the definitions are coming. Typing it into these forum posts is a pain. It will have to be an attachment. Have not done those. The word processor choice is the next question. I would prefer using Microsoft Word, but that would be a problem for some? Do I need to keep it a .txt file to make it universally readable? Could use some advice here.

tamo and I are in close agreement. The problem with the name Libertarian is how it means very different things. Some define it close to anarchy. Objectivism is very thoroughly defined by Ayn Rand with full epistomology, value definitions, moral codes, etc. in the greatest of detail. As the Marxists, socialists, etc. say....our system has never been fully implemented and no failure in the past or current government represents our philosophy well. I say the same for Objectivism. The closest was the USA at the decade of the Declaration of Independence and the Bill of Rights. I need to read what has been suggested above (hope it is not too long). The bit about 'do the simple math' is misleading. If you applied that to conditions 100 or 200 years ago when our modern technology was not dreamed of, they did the math for horses used for transportation in New York City and found disaster looming ahead (even if you are not buried in horse shit, how can we get everyone to work over our roads in horse carts...it is impossible! Any hint of how we move the millions now would get a horse laugh. We used to make nails on anvils and forges and you tried to make your cabin with a handful of nails because they cost so much. There price was justified by the amount of labor it toke the blacksmith. Now our much villified industries turn out millions of nails for insignificant cost and those cheap nails are available all over the world. The exploited workers world wide now have a choice of a job at a Walmart sweat shop or in local businesses. They line up in vast numbers for the sweat shop that pays so much more than other jobs available before the 'horrible' sweatshop arrived and provided the choice. People being sold to shops is the shame of the local government and their lack of stopping this. Walmart does not control the laws in the countries. Give it a generation or two and the people there may demand better. If their government kills them for protest...that is not on capitalism...it is on their government. Our immigrants all went thru a sweatshop period and it was a blessing to them. Their skills were few, language skills poor, wealth meager. Those that worked hard and instilled values in their children to improve themselves, had professionals in their family a generation or two later. The big point is people need opportunity and the wages you call exploitive are locally superior to other alternatives. Objectivism does not condone any force being applied to people that do not initiate force. So when that is a local condition, then it is wrong.

The definition of Marxism above is new to me. I ask the question are individuals paid proportionally to their contribution? Does the individual get to pick where and if they want to participate? Is force applied to the individual in any way? You see where I am going? I want to be born into the world in a system that assigns me inalienable rights that can not be voted away by any size majority and the freedom to act in my own interests without harming others equal rights to pursue their interests. I also state that no man has a claim on another. Relationships are voluntary. When you have these rules, capitalism is the only way for people to interact without force. If you equate capitalism with any coercion, then that is perverted capitalism.

I have to do some work now. Expect my definition document as soon as I can manage it.

John was amazed by the fact that people with views like mine would be doing AP. John and others, that normally means your understanding of what different systems represent still needs some filling in. I would suggest that Objectivists do not preclude any form of voluntary collective. But there must be the right to use capitalism...no forced pricing, no subsides using money extracted by law, prices free to fluctuate with the market....consumers free to choose and vote with their choices.

Oh damn! expected to keep it short this time...failed...just too great to have this discussion group.

Hi DB:
Man this is a deep thread, thanks to everyone for being so nice and open.

My problem when I think about the free enterprise stuff is that capitalism is not a moral code - it is the profit motive and nothing above that. If you were a proper capitalist you would cut down and sell off the trees on those 90 acres in Tennesee, remove the mountains to extract the coal underneath and use them to fill the valleys, then "develop" the land by putting in a mall and surround it with executive homes that start at $750K. Then give it a nice name like "Boone's Woods". (= This would all be consistent with the laissez-faire capitalism philosphy as you are not "hurting" anyone's individual rights and you own the land so why not exploit it to the fullest profit?

The free market philosophy is not good enough at managing the environment.

By the time the price of coal goes up enough for people to start using alternatives, all the mountains in Kentucky would be leveled, the valleys filled in and the streams rivers flowing with heavy metals and sludge. By the time Walmart starts raising prices because it is the only dept store in the US, all the Mom and Pop stores will be gone and there won't be any alternatives. Our country will be (is) in deep debt to the Chinese government and so we won't dare rock any boats with them, despite their bad human rights record. They are great capitalists. Capitalism has linked ours and the Chinese government together, like it or not, and we didn't vote on it either. Great capitalists make deals with Nazis to suppress labor unions and run the mines in Poland (Prescott Bush). Capitalism is amoral, and focusing on your self-interest does not lead to improved moral behavior.

Laws (coercion) are necessary to keep unrestrained capitalism from wrecking everything.

May Day (the big Communist holiday) began in Chicago, if it weren't for socialists you wouldn't have the weekends off:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haymarket_Riot

And conversely, laws can be used to wreck or ruin -- especially when a corporation becomes powerful enough to hire full-time lobbyists and buy legislators.



And if it weren't for religious influences, we might not care -- The idea of Sabboth rest came from the Judaism and imported in to Christianity, The days of the week are named after Norse Gods -- some of our months are named after GrecoRoman gods...

Interesting, Alan Greenspan is a long-time Objectivist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Greenspan

Re: Greenspan and the Housing Bubble in the wiki:
I guess I should thank him for my 1 hour 40 minute, 75 mile each-way commute. This because of $250,000 townhouses with no backyards to put AP systems in. Whatever, I guess that was really my choice to make...

Hey Dave...OK I will change to communism...I love holidays....oh damn, I am mostly retired (work about 12 weeks a year for others on contract)....so I may as well stay Objectivist.

Capitalism is not the whole story or a moral code. Your morals come from a full fledged philosophy or religion which is like a philosophy. Real capitalism means you own your property and are free to keep it, form it, or dispose of it without intervention. Anything else is enslaving the individual. You may not consider your taxes as enslavement, but look at it this way...you have no choice (threat of jail is similar to a gun to your head) and a value you earned is gone. Does the government do great things with the money, or would you put it to better use? If you view most people as having no generosity or willingness to spend their own money on doing good, then you would want the government to take that over. I do not, based on the people I meet (or talk to on the forum) and I consider myself. Yes, it is my right to treat that land just as you said (can I use that name, I like it) and I do not. You have definite views about protecting land as I actually do, so go put your money where your mouth is. Buy the land and protect it. The problem comes when you have values and you want to use my money extracted by force to accomplish them...that is soooo wrong! Do not enslave me for your wonderful goals...or anything else. Implement your ideas with voluntary money (as I have) form hugh collectives of like minded people and accomplish hugh goals...do not take the easy route of majority vote takes my rights away.

earthbound is a filthy capatalist, as am I. We each offer a product for sale and you can buy it or not. How refreshing! I guess little capitalism is good and big capitalism is the boogyman?

It is nostalgic and great to pine for the loss of service experienced at mom&pops grocery. They only fail when most people do not shop there. We have local businesses flurishing near me because people really see added value and vote with their patronage. When Walmart is the only business available and they dare raise their prices....guess what? Mom&Pop can reopen with lower prices or better quality or anything people want enough to actually shop there. Government agencies and commercial laws, all of which Objectivists deplore would be the only barrier to competeing with Wal-Mart. And then there is Microsoft giving me a free browser with their operating system...how terrible. Some said that had to end to protect the consumer....what??? I want the free browser. If there is a better browser for sale, then I will decide whether to buy that...what is wrong with the consumer deciding? Some evn laughingly say they are protecting free enterprise by forbidding Microsoft giving me a free browser...imagine that!

BTW, the Objectivists do advocate government courts where you can OBJECTIVELY PROVE someone is harming you by their actions and force them to stop. Of course that would cover pollution of any kind that affects areas off their property. Only the directly harmed persons can do this. Also consumers can affect corporate policies by actively creating bad publicity and boycotts...all good and all being done. This keeps the not so honorable accountable. I like seeing commercials by oil companies to tell the public how much they have done to clean up their act. That is something that they need to do to compete in free enterprise.

Interesting Dave; I knew Greenspan was an objectivist, but I do not know much about what he has said and done...so little time, so many interesting possibilities...no time for all!

Where you live and where you work can certainly be a compromise of your ideal situation. It always has been for me. My interests are split between high tech and living in the wilderness, as I would like.

Someone above said that money is not important in life and other things are. These may include family, art, creativity, religion, giving back, and more. Gee, a little money sure lets you do the other stuff. I like money...it is a fine tool...and if it is not the right tool, perhaps I can buy it?

Wealth is not evil and guns are not evil; it is people that can be evil. We just need to be free and protected by a government thats sole purpose is to protect individual rights. I can not think of what would be impractical or wrong about such a system. When you think how anyone would be exploited in such a system, then it seems the government protecting every individual's rights would be stepping in to end the use of force (exploitation can only be done with force or threat of force...agreed?
What do you see wrong with this principle? It is what attracts me to Objectivism. Of course the name Objectivism is from the fact that all values should come from logic used based on objective facts...that appeals to my logical mind.

I guess the biggest problem with philosophies and religions (basically just ways of thinking) is that no matter how good, they can be perverted.
Nobel had no idea that people would use explosives to destroy people and property. He invented dynamite as a tool. The brand of Communism in Russia, China, Cuba is just as different from what Marx envisioned as the Modern US is different from the founding fathers' ideals.