Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Q: Let's say I'm born paraplegic and my parents die in a car accident and I have no living relatives to take care of me, in this hypothetical situation with no social programs what happens?

Or even less tragic, my Dad loses his job. What then?

there are plenty of non for profit organizations that do not get government funding for just such an occasion.

You mean besides churches, or mostly churches?

From what I can tell most of these schemes assume churches take over moral/social responsibilities like keeping people from starving under such a regime, etc.

Good question.

What about someone with a mental disorder who needs meds but can't afford them? Isn't it cheaper to help them than wind up paying for them to be in prison? Assuming a non-profit is going to help these people is just like saying - not my problem.

Here's another - will we have zoning laws or will the guy next door be able to start a strip mining operation or toxic waste dump? So will the law enforcement people protect him from the mob that comes for him cause their pissed?

Will they stop business owners from hiring illegal immigrants at lower wages or will they just allow slavery again when people can't pay their debts. Who has to pay for the jails to house some of these people when they cause trouble. Is that a form of subsidy? What the hell maybe we can save money and just start a colony in Australia.

I realize this post is a bit over the top but my point is - this is one of those things that sounds good at first but is very idealized and not particularly realistic. Yeah, you could probably figure it out but it might not be an improvement by the time your done.

My suggestion to a better capitalist system is to limit the income of the highest paid person to only ten times that of the lowest paid person or something along these lines and maybe have some sort of lifetime maximum. In other words compress the pay scale. In this way the money owned by the lowest paid person will have more purchasing power (a living wage) but there will still be incentives to work and invest for most people.

Figuring out how to do this would be the tough part. The people at the top would still accumulate way more they just couldn't do it as fast and at some point they can't accumulate any more so they hit a steady state financially.

You are right, those with vested interests (the government, the banks, and the corporations benefiting the most from govt handouts/regulation/other) Would not want it to pass. It would require the majority of the population to understand some very basic economics and how they are being screwed with taxes and more significantly, inflation. Inflation benefits the govt and the banks and the connected corps, and absolutely steals the wealth from everyone else.
There has already been a big shift in attitude in the US thanks to Ron Paul especially among the young people. When this global economic crises that is going on exposes the govts for what they are, many more people will begin to understand.

I totally reject the idea of forcing anything upon anyone. It would only come about organically from the peoples education and experience.

And there will not be any "replacing" only reducing of govt.

No it isn't. No system is perfect. There will still be fraud and murder and stealing and all those things of course. There would also be a full courts and police and emergency services. The only difference is that these things are not funded by the govt, but simply funded by the people exercising their free choice (or their insurance companies)

I don't know much about Somalia. A quick google search of "somalia government" brought up this ( I was surprised too) http://www.peterleeson.com/better_off_stateless.pdf


I know it is such a crazy concept for some that we need some great human authority to tell us what to do. What to eat, how to live, what to buy, how much to spend, how to look after our health, how to educate ourselves. Without them we would wither and die !!

Some libertarians are anarchists (anarcho-capitalists) who believe no state is best. Some libertarians are "minarchists" who believe in a small govt whos sole job is to protect our individual liberties and private property rights. Some people like libertarian priciples but are not sure how small government should be. I am moving from the minarchist view to the anarcho-capitalist view because I have spent a lot of time going over the arguments for the total elimination of govt and how people would respond to fill those services in a private fashion.

However I will take whatever I can get ! Lets start by just reducing govt instead of expanding it !! governments around the world are expanding. Government never voluntarily get smaller, only during economic crises (that the govt caused in the first place) are they forced to get smaller because as peoples wages go down (real wages) revenue decreases. This is normally called a recession or depression.

This would truly be a step in the right direction! And if we got to this point and that was all, I would be a happy man. And we would ALL be wealthier, and there would be less poor. There would also be more charity because we would all have more money to give.

Not just churches. There are some fantastic secular charities that operate soley from donations and profits from businesses such as 2nd clothing/furniture stores etc. DESPITE the govt doing its best to destroy these organisations (new tax laws, insane!!)

There will be less people in need to start off with (govt welfare creates more welfare)
And if you are not stealing 40% or more of every persons weekly wage how much more money can potentially go to charity ?
I don't make a lot of money, and am supporting a family, yet we still manage to have a sponsor child and give elsewhere... we do what we can. Like most people, we like helping others.
People are not as cruel as you think.

I think you have it backwards. Everyone thinks right now that the govt looks after anyone in need. This is not true and many truly in need miss out.
The fact of this welfare makes everyone think that everyone is being looked after, so most don't even think about it.
If there was no govt welfare everyone would understand that when someone looks like they are in need, they really are ! And they would be helped.[/quote]

No one who believes in small/no govt would condone such an action.
Courts and the protection of private property rights would prevail in this one.
Just because govt doesn't pay for something doesn't mean it wont be there.
The local shopping mall employs security guards full time to help prevent thefts and other crimes.[/quote]

You are covering a lot of topics. If you are actually interested in the topic of private prisons then I can refer you to thread on another forum. PM me. Personally I would be surprised if you are interested (excuse me if Im wrong).

This is a very very old topic going back over 100 years. If anyone here is open minded enough to actually read what the greatest minds in Austrian Economics and libertarianism have to say please refer to (for starters) Murray Rothbard and Ludwig von Mises.

To keep myself versed in all viewpoints I try and read all sorts of things.
I am currently reading the Manifesto of the communist party. Marx was a brilliant man and worth reading, his economics (among other things) was completely up to s*%t though..

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/ch01.htm [url]http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1848/communist-manifesto/ch01.htm
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Otherwise just keep watching tv

Okaaay!... Five consecutive ranting posts SV???... I resisted for as long as I possibly could, but now I too have gotta add my +1 to the list of people that find this as boring as bat shi... thud!... Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

+1

A sticking point for me is that there are still courts. Law is sublimated violence, how can you still have courts telling "me" what to do if it is against the philosophy? I would think there would be a lot of argument about which laws are coercion outside of the philosophy and which aren't. If I'm a billionaire why can't I build a strip mine next door to Scotty's house, "Hey man I bought it it's my property - FREEDOM!!!"

Thanks SuperVeg, we have too much in common! If you make it to USA, would like to invite you over for some good food and few drinks, and of course a good cigar.

Most interesting posts. It took me a while to go through the whole thing, and it sure proves my opinion, that those who claim to be open minded are the most closed minded ones!

Anyway, we would not be in this mess if the currencies were backed by Gold or platinum. My grand father told me once, that he could by a good horse with a gold coin, I can do the same today! Now go figure this out.

I mentioned once before that as long as we the people do not understand what the Associatrion of Bank owners have done, we will not be able to unit and do the right things.

I would like those who think they are open minded to read the book " The 5000 Year Leap"
It is possible, that few might learn something.

And also we must think about the being of a human being. We are created as a faulty beings. I talk about myself. During my short life of almost 60, it has been so hard to keep it stright and do the RIGHT thing all the times. There has been so many temptations of different sorts. Thanks God that I had strength and faith to controlled myself (as of now, I have no clue what I do tomorrow! I just keep my faith and do my best).

Many many years ago, if you believe it or not, I was sort of kind of a freedom fighter. I had studied Karl Marx, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao. I did believe that we all should share everything. Oh God, how wrong I was!! Also spend some time in political prison, and did experience first hand some torture too.

And there is no such thing as FAIR. What is fair, for me to work 12 hours a day and support a stupid lazy bum?

Is it fair that I do not have a million Dollar voice, or look? There are exceptions in life, and it should not be used for the sack of an argument. EXCEPTIONS always existed and it will continue to exist for ever.

It takes a good family (mother and Father) to raise a child with a good value, ( again, please do not give me an exception that you were from a single parent family and you are great.)

Now, what are good values? Good values can be:
1. Acepting responsibility for your own and own actions. That can mean if I have a mentally retarded child, I should take care of it. Or, if I am lazy and out of work, I should not steal from others. Or if I am not working hard, I should not be jealous of others who do.
2. Do not lie.
3. Do not cheat.
4. Do not steal.
5. Do not commit adultery.
6. Think positive, act positive, talk positive.
7. Do not be jealous of others, or thier accomplishments.

Jealousy can bring hate. And if one allows hate in him, humanity will walk out of his sole!

If we desire a better world, we must start with ourselves first!!!!

Thanks again Superveg.

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I agree with the statement that many do miss out. Often this is because of roadblocks put in to cut costs. Insurance companies do the same thing by refusing legitimate claims the first time they are sent in so this is not strictly a government issue.

There are many people who would help a human being in need but there are many who would not - The system you suggest gives an advantage to people who don't care because they will not be the ones spending their money to help these people.

I too still have troubles with the land useage issue. Who's going to cause the rich guy to do what's right - it's on his property he should be able to do whatever he wants.

We both know I was making a point that had little to do with prisons. Yes private prisons do exist and yes I am aware of this. I am also aware that a landowner/business with security guards and a fence around his property might not give a hoot about paying to imprison someone who can't physically reach him. Let someone else deal with it. Or if the crime wasn't committed on his property, does he have any resposibility? If the state determines that this law breaker gets sent to prison then who pays?

I'll leave it at that..

Do you realise you have the choice not to read it ??
Thanks for your valuable comments