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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 01:48 
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Bush is always up to something- some things he has done I didn't hear about until I started to look at the possibility of moving to another country. Guess what I ran into, on a real estate webpage of all things! So looked around to verify if it was true or not. I think it is.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4289224.stm
I know there is alot of instability in South America and oil and dicators but then I read the rest.

http://kendallian.blogspot.com/2007/04/ ... aguay.html

Why would Bush want to move to Paraguay and it is interesting to note that the entire country sits on the WORLD'S LARGEST FRESHWATER SOURCE. Makes you wonder if he knows something that the rest of us don't.


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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 01:56 
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Subtle terrorization of the American public. It has been happening for years in the UK too where the rest of my family live. Acts of terrorism now make London the most watched and monitored city in the world.

But I believe this all to be a global threat. The sophisticated societies have to be intimidated into submission first. I seriously believe that the funding and political pressure used to bring "democracy" into South Africa - while overdue in terms of the atrocities of apartheid - and I do not in any way minimise or excuse the horrors of those times - played right into the hands of a more diabolical global agenda. South Africa under the stubborn hand of an Afrikaner government was not easily manipulated. But European - or should I say Caucasion - control of Rhodesia and South Africa fell in the end to intense world pressure. Look at Rhodesia - aka Zimbabwe - today. Once known as the bread basket of Africa. Now a wasteland of broken people ravaged by cholera.

Most coverage on the SA news today is the internal squabbles of the ruling ANC party, the lack of crime control, or corruption at all levels from the top down. External control would be mere child's play......

Destabilization of an area and societies in a constant state of critical alert is the mark of our age. "Protection" is the the trojan horse.

I believe that though most has been initiated in the States decades ago, central control of this insidious agenda will move to the EU. Destabilization of the dollar will be the primary method used. The USA will become less involved globally in efforts to stabilize its free-falling economy and the EU will take up the slack. "Terrorism" will be fought from the EU.... and who doesn't want the terrorist controlled?....


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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 02:44 
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All,
I do believe that this type of issue will become more prevelent. The US is heading this way, as someone else posted, there is a great lack of personnal responsibility in this country!

I so beleive that if hard working people find themselves in a hard time they should totally take advantage of our welfare system, to which they have paid into. I also beleive that we should help children who are not responsible for the situation they are in. And also the infirm, mentally, physically, etc- those who CANNOT take care of themselves. I also beleive that people who want to better themselves, get out of where they are, pull themselves up by their boot straps... they can use my tax dollars to do that. Everyone else- GET A FRICK'N JOB!!

I also beleive that we should gear up to take care of ourselves and our families/friends (It is the responsible thing to do.). Some might say, "But this is self-centered, and selfish and shows a lack of concern for humanity." I say that it will be hard to help our "fellow man" if we ourselves are looking for our next meal!

I did a little Goggle work ("Manna Storehouse") and discovered another side of the Manna Storehouse story. This is not meant to rebut the orginal posting, or to lighten the implications of the situation but does seem a little less dramatic and might help us center more towards the truth. The URL is: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/12 ... ffice.html I did not copy the whole thing.

At one point the article says that the Health Dept tried to inspect the Storehouse in November but the staff turned them away. It reminded me of the Waco, Tx- Koresh -thing. The government tried an easier way early on, but they were denied access so then we later have a travesty. I think that if we are not doing anything illegal we should becarful about pushing the issue? What if the Storehouse had allowed the inspection, taken the outcome THEN hired a lawyer and fought the fines?

Anyway sometimes there is reason to swim against the current and sometimes it brings greater focus on what we may not want closely examined...?

When the time comes it will be a hard row to hoe.
_______________________________

"Manna Storehouse is an organic and all-natural food co-op on Ohio 303, according to the store's Web site. The site lists the store as selling dry goods, household items and frozen meats.

At the same time, store policies say it does not sell to the public -- only to members of the co-op who pay a membership fee. Openly proclaiming it is not licensed and does not plan to obtain a license, Manna has members affirm that they "take full responsibility for their own health, health choices, food choices and food quality."

County officials say the business cannot operate that way.

Assistant County Prosecutor Scott Serazin said any business that sells perishable foods must be licensed and follow regulations covering those who store and supply food. There is no exception in the law for a co-op, Serazin said, and Manna cannot ask customers to waive safety regulations

"You just can't have that," he said. "There has to be some kind of regulation and inspection of food."

The Lorain County Health Department tried to inspect the Storehouse in November 2007 but the family told inspectors to leave the property. Jacqueline Stowers wrote the department the next month that Manna does not need a license and that the inspection was an attempt to "cunningly coerce unlawful entry into our house and private property."

In September, the county asked the Ohio Department of Agriculture for assistance, and an agent purchased eggs at the store. When agents learned of a possible delivery of meat, they obtained a warrant to search for evidence of the business's activities.

Serazin said charges are likely later this week. He also said that if the Stowerses try to reopen without obtaining a license, he would likely go to court to block it.

"Protection of health is one of the important roles of government," Serazin said. "That's what this is all about." "


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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 03:08 
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[quote="anthony.faircloth"]All,
I do believe that this type of issue will become more prevelent. The US is heading this way, as someone else posted, there is a great lack of personnal responsibility in this country!

I so beleive that if hard working people find themselves in a hard time they should totally take advantage of our welfare system, to which they have paid into. I also beleive that we should help children who are not responsible for the situation they are in. And also the infirm, mentally, physically, etc- those who CANNOT take care of themselves. I also beleive that people who want to better themselves, get out of where they are, pull themselves up by their boot straps... they can use my tax dollars to do that. Everyone else- GET A FRICK'N JOB!!

Agreed and my sentiments exactly! but the health dept using swat tactics Overzealous OVERKILL! Banks don't want credit unions. Supermarkets don't want roadside vendors selling turnip greens and hog cracklins along side the road. Feed stores sell yard eggs. This is more about compitition and revenue than public safety! State and local governments are missing out on sales taxes! Good thing the children didn't have any toy guns!


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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 03:27 
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Angie wrote:
Why would Bush want to move to Paraguay and it is interesting to note that the entire country sits on the WORLD'S LARGEST FRESHWATER SOURCE. Makes you wonder if he knows something that the rest of us don't.

The Guardian, Monday 23 October 2006 ............. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/oc ... omphillips
Yes. Would be interesting to know his real reasons.

Tony: Interesting. Can't help wondering if this is not just "official speak" against the weight of public outcry......

And an excerpt from The Bovine.
Quote:
"But before we proceed with Kimberly’s story, I’d like to add a few words about the excerpts which follow. The interview they are from provides a helpful framework with which to understand how the Manna Storehouse raid could be seen as a kind of “test-marketing” for a new style of policing (or repression). And according to that interview, the planners would be carefully monitoring everyone’s response through internet and telephone traffic, as well as through the more public media, to see how they could “model” this “perturbation” they’ve caused to the status quo, all the better to better roll out their “program” smoothly when the time comes."


Stowers tell their story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdLxMKux ... r_embedded

Ohio’s Buckeye Institute for Public Policy Solutions is taking legal action on behalf of the Stowers of Manna Storehouse Coop. Here’s a statement about the case published today on the Buckeye Institute website.:

Quote:
“Columbus - The Buckeye Institute’s 1851 Center for Constitutional Law today took legal action against the Ohio Department of Agriculture (ODA) and the Lorain County Health Department for violating the constitutional rights of John and Jacqueline Stowers of LaGrange, Ohio. The Stowers operate an organic food cooperative called Manna Storehouse. ODA and Lorain County Health Department agents forcefully raided their home and unlawfully seized the family’s personal food supply, cell phones and personal computers. The legal center seeks to halt future similar raids. The complaint was filed in Lorain County Court of Common Pleas.

“The use of these police state tactics on a peaceful family is simply unacceptable,” Buckeye Institute President David Hansen said. “Officers rushed into the Stowers’ home with guns drawn and held the family - including ten young children - captive for six hours. This outrageous case of bureaucratic overreach must be addressed.”

The Buckeye Institute argues the right to buy food directly from local farmers; distribute locally-grown food to neighbors; and pool resources to purchase food in bulk are rights that do not require a license. In addition, the right of peaceful citizens to be free from paramilitary police raids, searches and seizures is guaranteed under the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution and Section 14, Article 1 of the Ohio Constitution.

“The Stowers’ constitutional rights were violated over grass-fed cattle, pastured chickens and pesticide-free produce,” Buckeye Institute 1851 Center of Constitutional Law Director Maurice Thompson said. “Ohioans do not need a government permission slip to run a family farm and co-op, and should not be subjected to raids when they do not have one. This legal action will ensure the ODA understands and respects Ohioans’ rights.”

On the morning of December 1, 2008, law enforcement officers forcefully entered the Stowers’ residence, without first announcing they were police or stating the purpose of the visit. With guns drawn, officers swiftly and immediately moved to the upstairs of the home, finding ten children in the middle of a home-schooling lesson. Officers then moved Jacqueline Stowers and her children to their living room where they were held for more than six hours.

Such are raids are beyond the scope of the purely administrative authority delegated to ODA and county health departments. In enforcing licensure laws, these agencies are only permitted to contract for routine enforcement services. Forceful raids and sweeping searches and seizures are not routine, and exceed the authority granted to ODA and county health departments.

The Buckeye Institute seeks an injunction against similar future raids, and a declaration that such licensure laws are unconstitutional as applied the Stowers and individuals like them.

There has never been a complaint filed against Manna Storehouse or the Stowers related to the quality or healthfulness of the food distributed through the co-op. The Buckeye Institute’s legal center will defend the Stowers from any criminal charges related to the raid.

A copy of the complaint is available at http://www.buckeyeinstitute.org/stowers.pdf. A video of the Stowers describing the raid is available here.

The Buckeye Institute for Public Policy Solutions, together with its 1851 Center for Constitutional Law, is a nonpartisan research and educational institute devoted to individual liberty, economic freedom, personal responsibility and limited government in Ohio.”


Read David E. Gumpert’s thoughtful analysis of these latest developments on his The Complete Patient blog

Here is the family's own thoughts on their blog:
http://steveandpaularunyan.blogspot.com ... pdate.html


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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 08:07 
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I'm glad to see some legal filings on their behalf. But I believe criminal charges not just civil suits should also be filed against the ODA, and the agents individually. If military officers order a solder to break the law, they are not to be followed. (of course they usually are)but police/government agents should be held to at least that standard. And if they abuse that power on their own or by following orders the should pay for their crimes.


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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 08:51 
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Chelle, when I watched your video I ran across these!
He is somewhat simple minded and says some stupid stuff sometimes, but you gotta love his candor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLsx_vei ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ovv4OV2 ... re=related


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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 10:33 
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I suspect that every 2-3 hundred year in any society either the dogs allow themselves to be muzzled, and get use to the muzzle, or they continue to struggle against the leash and the beatings until the break free and attack the master. It all depends on the values of the people.

I also have read that collapse of any society is inevitable. I think its a cyclic thing and that it has nothing to do with technology, or any one thing. It is just a "natural cycle" that always happens.

The best sited society would be the Egyptians who for their day had technology (chariots) and rule of law, art, writen language, engineering marvels, etc. They lasted for around 3000 years, but just a few hundred years after their collapse, when Napoleans army was collecting egyptian artifacts, no Egyptian could read hiroglyphics.

But remember, societies collapse, communities survive.

Just My Two Cents,

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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 12:55 
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anthony.faircloth wrote:
I also have read that the collapse of any society is inevitable. I think its a cyclic thing and that it has nothing to do with technology, or any one thing. It is just a "natural cycle" that always happens.
But remember, societies collapse, communities survive.
Tony

The collapse of any society is the fault of their government- they either fail to protect their people and another society conquers them or they are considered corrupted- by money, power, military- or ineffectual and their own people rebel against them. Very few societies have died off from starvation, although it has happened- Easter Island comes to mind and the Pueblo Indians and other soicieties, mostly American Indians have died off from introduced diseases that they had no immunity against. I don't count conquered societies that are absorbed by their conquerers and as generations pass, cease to exist.
Not one type of government has survived in the long run, although some have had runs for 1000's of years. Our democratic government is no more sustainable than the Romans, the Egyptians, the Chinese dynasty, the Aztecs or the Nazis. It's just a question of when and I think that "when" is accelarating. Sadly, I diagree with your second statement that societies collapse but communities survive- in a true collaspse, there will be many casualites and communities, as we know them, will not survive, only a lucky few will- they will rebuild and create new communities and eventually a new society, as it has always been through time. But it will be such a great waste, as it has been in the past- the loss of people, safety and knowledge. A society is built up in stages- first the basic needs must be met- food, water, shelter, safety, family- only then can it expand to evetually include science, the arts and specilization- the highest forms in our society- these things need a stable society.
I see our own society and that of the rest of the world sliding back to the basic needs. This forum is a classic example of those fears- we are trying to create a sustainable food supply, apart from the world's, we are trying to conserve water- whether it is a concious thought or not, we know that water scarcity is coming- and we talk about our families and our fear of not keeping them safe- whether it's providing them with food or the fear of a heavy handed government because no government, throughout the history of time, has ever been benign.


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PostPosted: Dec 25th, '08, 15:06 
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BatonRouge Bill wrote:
Chelle, when I watched your video I ran across these!
He is somewhat simple minded and says some stupid stuff sometimes, but you gotta love his candor!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLsx_vei ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ovv4OV2 ... re=related

Hee! Hee! :D Lovely man! Says what he wants to say regardless of his audience. If he were here I'd vote him in! Had Fox News by the tail there.... no matter how hard they tried to steer him! Has the guts to really lead......... and a clear conviction .... not so common these days in politics.


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PostPosted: Dec 26th, '08, 00:11 
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Chelle here is another big brother one I Know you would be interested in!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIfAHWfSypU&NR=1


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PostPosted: Dec 26th, '08, 22:07 
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Angie wrote:
National Animal Identification System is a huge undertaking that is already starting- it's suppose to be voluntary but several states have already made it mandatory or are sneaking farms on the list, without owner's consent. It involves anyone who owns any livestock, including horses, to tag their animals, register their farms and report any movement of their animals. This is so bad that the Amish people are considering moving en-masse to South America because their religion forbids marking their animals.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul326.html

Interesting excerpt BRB. I watch CBN news almost daily. Usually get to hear what is not reported in the mainstream media. They do more in-depth reporting.

NAIS. Is what Angie spoke of earlier. I keep hearing of it time and again. Constantly declared not mandatory but individuals are being forced into it. Vetinary services needed are another route that ensures the treated animal is registered on the system. Again the trojan horse is "protection" ...... this time against disease outbreak and protection to the food supply. So reasonable. Wish I could trust the agenda put forward as that alone. Gives me the willies...

Was very interested to see DIGITAL ANGEL and VERICHIP linked here too...... Never heard of the chip causing cancer in animals before. That woman's discomfort with her chip was a first too........


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PostPosted: Dec 26th, '08, 22:51 
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Here is an article from Mother Earth News about a fellow who as a small organic farmer has dealt with government regulation. His book is called "Everything I want to do is illegal".
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Sustaina ... rview.aspx


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PostPosted: Dec 26th, '08, 23:05 
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The beginning of a new "religion" to sort out expected catastrophic inevitabilities....... Change the paradigm of how man thinks about himself with extreme controls in place to facilitate mankind's move toward this better place.... friendly fascism.......

Quote:
..............The government has known for decades that America is on a countdown to self-destruction. Among the elite it is common knowledge that our "global economy" must one day collapse from its own dead weight. In 1974 an intensive research project was undertaken by the Stanford Research Institute and the Charles F. Kettering Foundation for the Dept. of Education. Their final report was released as the Changing Images of Man. It was compiled by the SRI Center for the Study of Social Policy, Director Willis Harmon. This is a far-reaching investigation into how the basic nature of man might be changed. The Aquarian Conspiracy describes the implementation of their work in the real world........

........The research revealed that there were a multitude of crises that were about to intersect in America's near future. Not the least of these converging catastrophes was a rapidly approaching breakdown of both American capitalism and democracy. The collapse was a natural result of globalism and monopoly capitalism. The basic greed that powers the system eroded the American political and economic structures, exposing the foundation of immorality and unfairness that amplifies the social unrest. The Stanford researchers clearly predicted that the American economy was destined to collapse from its own dead weight. The data also showed that that economic collapse was to be accompanied by disastrous social repercussions, such as rioting and upheaval, which would lead us into a "garrison state.".....

...........Changing Images of Man predicts an American economic collapse and a "garrison" (police) state," if the overwhelming inequities of our economic system are not corrected by powerful multinationals making more humane decisions. Alternatives to this doomsday scenario are discussed, all of which point to the need to devote all available resources towards transforming the image of man, changing man's nature, instead of altering the corrupted economic system which has brought America to this dire state. In this government study it was inappropriate to denounce the evil culprits behind all our troubles (who pull the strings on government itself), even though the task was to document and remedy the damage that they have done. Instead, they are cited as the hopeful "saviors," that we should look to for help and leadership. The hypocrisy of the hegemons! The authors admit that it is "utopian in 1974 to think of the multinational corporations as potentially among our most effective mechanisms for husbanding the earth's resources and optimizing their use for human benefit -- the current popular image of the corporation tends to be more that of the spoiler and the exploiter. ........

...........The report authors recognize the inevitability of the rising new image of man, describing it as a quasi-religious awakening within the collective mind of man, man's new human nature, relating it to the actual process of spiritual learning that has been going on within religions for thousands of years. They praise Freemasonry and the skills and disciplines inculcated within its members, speculating that their ways might be the key to shoring-up our free enterprise democratic society.

They developed a strategy to revitalize America's motivational images, symbols and institutions, outlining five separate approaches to the problem, describing the pluses and the pitfalls of each, according to their effects upon society. These approaches are defined as "restorative, simulative, manipulative, persuasive and facilitative." Restoration of crumbling icons works best in the early stages of societal transformation (revitalization cycle). The simulative strategy introduces new ideas, whenever the collapse of the old order becomes apparent. The manipulative strategy seeks to limit individual freedoms. Persuasive propaganda phase is to be coupled with proven mind control techniques, to keep down the social upheaval and shape the emerging image.

"No doubt existing consciousness-changing, behavior-shaping, subliminal persuasion, and other conditioning techniques could be used to accomplish some sort of transformation of sobering proportions (we ought to be able to be more effective than Nazi Germany). After previously citing Nazi reinvigoration of the Germanic icons and ideals."

The transforming revitalization process mirrors the psychiatric process of leading a patient through a psychotic break and the restructuring of his life, but on a national scale.

Once the transformation becomes apparent, social stability will become a problem, especially when society feels pushed by overextending the simulative stage. Actions taken to increase the polarization between "transformation enthusiasts and the conservatives" are called "constructive," except when it is desirable to take actions that "contribute to social cohesion." They were searching for the best path to bring about a controlled deconstruction of everything that "America" means and the reconstruction of a new improved vision of America. They are midwifes to the delivery of the "New World Order," as they go about the dirty business of guiding society through that predicted period of "friendly fascism."

The great anomaly is given as the great chasm between an efficiently functioning profit-driven capitalist society and the human needs and desires of that society which go unmet, so that "profits" can be taken. In fact, the "profit" really amounts to the bread that is taken from the poor. The inequities and the unfairness of the corporate system are causing the breakdown of American capitalism and American democracy. The American catastrophe is causing the breakdown of the world economy for the same reason, the basic inability of monopoly capitalism to meet the basic needs demanded by the world's people.

Bush's appointed task is to bully America through this turbulent period of upheaval, with as little disruption of corporate activity as possible. Government has taken the words of this study to heart, preparing a manipulative transformation, to divert or preempt the coming collapse of our nation with a massive war today. This is also one of the primary reasons for the coming world war, to serve as a prelude to American martial law. Instead of calling out the troops after the insurrection has begun, they plan to call out the troops first. If the American military is to forcefully control the homeland, including their own relatives, then the troops must first be convinced that the nation's survival depends upon their patriotic actions. This is why the world war against Iran has not started yet, because our National Guard must first be convinced that its duty is to put down the American rebellion which will surely accompany the bombing of Iran. The timing for their great takeover is crucial, if they want to move America past (through) the social unrest as quickly as possible.

Here are the "Elements of a Strategy for a Non-catastrophic Transition":

1. Promote awareness of the unavoidability of the transformation.

2. Foster construction of a guiding vision of a workable society built around the new image of man and new social paradigm.

3. Foster a period of experimentation and tolerance for diverse alternatives.

4. Encourage a politics of righteousness and a heightened sense of public responsibilities of the private sector . . . A politics of righteousness might have been laudable in any generation; it may be indispensable for safe passage through the times just ahead.

5. Promote systematic exploration of and foster education regarding man's inner life, his subjective experience.

6. Plan adequate social controls for the transition period while safeguarding against longer-term losses of freedom . . . Regulation and restraint of behavior will be necessary in order to hold the society together while it goes around a difficult corner.


Whole article is here...........http://www.onlinejournal.com/artman/pub ... 2715.shtml

Quote from CHANGING IMAGES OF MAN.....
Quote:
I do not wish to seem overdramatic but I can only conclude
from the information that is available to me as Secretary-General
that the Members of the United Nations have perhaps ten years
left in which to subordinate their ancient quarrels and launch a
global partnership to curb the arms race, to improve the human
environment, to defuse the population explosion, and to supply
the required momentum to development efforts. If such a global
partnership is not forged within the next decade, then I very
much fear that the problems I have mentioned will have reached
such staggering proportions that they will be beyond our capacity
to control.
V Thant (1969)


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PostPosted: Dec 26th, '08, 23:41 
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I love this article BRB. First because it really spoke to me when he said............
Quote:
As early as I can remember, I’ve wanted to be a farmer. I love growing things. I appreciate the emotional steadiness of animals. Every day when I go to move the cow herd, they are glad to see me. The pigs always come over to talk. None of these critters ever asks you to fill out licenses or threatens litigation. They never talk behind your back or conspire to overthrow you. And to watch the land heal, with ever-growing mounds of earthworm castings, is better than any video. Indeed, walking through a dew-speckled pasture in the early morning after a blessed nighttime thunderstorm, the ground literally covered with copulating earthworms — what could be more magical than that?......

........The main idea we promote is that our animals enjoy a habitat that allows them to fully express their physiological distinctiveness. I like to say we want our pigs to express their pigness and the chickens their chickenness. The industrial food system views plants and animals as inanimate protoplasmic structure to be manipulated, however cleverly the human mind can conceive to manipulate it.

I would suggest that a society that views its life from that egocentric, disrespectful, manipulative standpoint will view its citizenry the same way . . . and other cultures. How we respect and honor the least of these creates the ethical, moral framework on which we honor and respect the greatest of these.

And then because it is such an honest-to-goodness discussion of what is really happening at a grass-roots level........ and he has some real answers about how to live as a farmer. But it takes time and skill....

Go underground?........
Quote:
The market limitations are primarily twofold.........................the Food Safety and Inspection Service has successfully annihilated most community-based, appropriately sized abattoirs (slaughterhouses) and criminalized on-farm processing. This is by far the major impediment to the local integrity of food.

........The second market limitation has to do with entry-level requirements for major marketing channels. From liability insurance to net-90-day payment to slotting fees, large buyers share a Wall-Street business mentality. That mentality aggressively shuns competition, especially from little innovators. But every time industrial food hiccups with recalls and more diseases, another wave of opt-outers hits the local, integrity food scene. Exciting times.......

I for one would be happy to miss out on this kind of excitement. We are all grist to the mill to a very greedy and powerful agenda

Quote:
......What are some of the biggest challenges you’ve faced as a farmer?
Anyone familiar with me would have to smile at this question, knowing that my answer would be and continues to be the food police. The on-farm hurdles we’ve faced, from drought to predators to flood to cash flow, are nothing compared to the emotional, economic and energy drain caused by government bureaucrats.

Wish - with all my heart - it were not true .....
Thanks for the posting BRB. Mother Earth News is a favourite read.


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