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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '12, 19:25 
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earthbound wrote:
Yeah, that's where it just kind of all falls apart from what I can see...

To me the ideals of libertarianism seem to be the epitome of selfishness, or more precisely "self". Community as such, doesn't exist. It's a world centred around "self" and business.


Actually due to welfare and big govt, people have developed an "entitlement mentality" where they keep wanting more and more for free from the government (which means less for everyone else).

So I see libertarianism as reclaiming our sense of responsibility. No one is going to look after you so you have to do it yourself. (leaving out the charity debate)

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Your getting side tracked.....

??
That is your answer to my post ??


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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '12, 19:31 
SuperVeg wrote:
RupertofOZ wrote:
Well from SV argument... that nobody should harm anybody else... then surely it could be argued that various corporations are doing harm to others...

Can you explain this argument? Im not sure exactly what you mean.
No one has the right to aggress against another or their property (non aggression principle)

Well isn't that exactly what I said... noone, even coporations has the right to "aggress"... harm.. another...

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By definition, even if not by reality... the people's collective voice could be said to be government...

Government is more than this, see previous post

I never said it wasn't more than just a collective voice... it just said that it was a colective voice of the people...

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So government, on behalf of the "people" has every right to place restrictions on corporations... or even people for that matter...

In no way, under any circumstances is this true or implied in any way.


Why not... and if this was to be true as part of Liberatarianism... them you would seem to be suggesting that government has no right to enact any laws...

Even as a "collective" representation of the "peoples voice"....

To extend your arguement further... then you would be saying that no collective voice had the right to enact any "laws"...

And as such... every individual would only have the right to make laws for themselves...

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the only other alternative... would be unfettered anarchy...

Im not sure if you are using the correct definition of anarchy.
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Anarchism is generally defined as the political philosophy which holds the state to be immoral

Did you mean "running around with flaming torches" because without the govt people would somehow be rendered incapable of maintaining a civil society ?


Would sound like anarchy... and probably a lot of individuals running a round with torches.. to me...

They wouldn't be a mob... if they were all Liberatarians.... just a bunch of enlightened individuals.... :lol:


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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '12, 19:49 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
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In no way, under any circumstances is this true or implied in any way.
Why not... and if this was to be true as part of Liberatarianism... them you would seem to be suggesting that government has no right to enact any laws...

Even as a "collective" representation of the "peoples voice"....

To extend your arguement further... then you would be saying that no collective voice had the right to enact any "laws"...

Ahh, I now see the point you are trying to make.
Sure a collective voice of the people could make laws that the people chose to live by.
The problem arises when the collective voice of some(or most) people impose a law over other people that don't wish to have that law.
Libertarianism has no problem with Rupe setting up is own communist part of society as long as it is voluntary, EB setting up his voluntary utopia, and SV setting up his libertarian part.
The point is it must be voluntary
The only laws in a libertarian society are along the lines of non agression principle. And of course contract law (because contract is a transfer of property) Tax is aggression because property is taken without consent. Taking someones property to put a train line in (for the good of some) is aggression against their property. Punching someone in the face is also aggression against their property.
I (as an individual) have no choice in government. My vote will never (for all intents and purposes) make any difference as to who governs my country. I have no choice, and no blame (again, as an individual) in the nature of the current government.

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And as such... every individual would only have the right to make laws for themselves...
If it complies with the above basic rules then yes. But I don't know how that helps you or anyone. People inherently need each other for the advantage of the division of labour and so social laws will always arise (you are a compulsive liar so you will have a bad reputation and have no friends..etc)


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Would sound like anarchy... and probably a lot of individuals running a round with torches.. to me...

See above, it is really not in anyones best interests to do this. Instead of govt cops, you just have private ones..

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They wouldn't be a mob... if they were all Liberatarians.... just a bunch of enlightened individuals.... :lol:
Just a bunch of guys sitting around debating on forums? :)


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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '12, 20:57 
SuperVeg wrote:
The point is it must be voluntary
The only laws in a libertarian society are along the lines of non agression principle. And of course contract law (because contract is a transfer of property) Tax is aggression because property is taken without consent. Taking someones property to put a train line in (for the good of some) is aggression against their property. Punching someone in the face is also aggression against their property.
I (as an individual) have no choice in government. My vote will never (for all intents and purposes) make any difference as to who governs my country. I have no choice, and no blame (again, as an individual) in the nature of the current government.

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And as such... every individual would only have the right to make laws for themselves...
If it complies with the above basic rules then yes. But I don't know how that helps you or anyone. People inherently need each other for the advantage of the division of labour and so social laws will always arise (you are a compulsive liar so you will have a bad reputation and have no friends..etc)

So here we are in happy Libertarian utopia...

Tommie was born without legs, and is wheelchair bound.... half of the community hates him because he's a compulsive liar... the other half because he's black...

One day Tommie falls out of his wheelchair after running over a gold nugget on his property....

The rest of the community rock up and start digging for gold....

Tommie protests... reminding them of their Libertarian values....

Half the community tells him to "piss off ya lying bugger"... the other half to "piss of ya black bastard"....

Tommie protests further... and they push him, wheelchair and all... into the river...

A few weeks later... the people that were related to Tommie... claim that his land, and any gold is theirs....

The rest of the community says "bullocks"... and draws their individually legally decreed guns.. and opens fire...

The relatives draw their individually decreed guns... and fire back....


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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '12, 21:46 
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RupertofOZ
Good God! where did this come from?
This is the reason I always recommend to kids, do not use hard drugs!

ha ha ha h ah hhha


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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '12, 21:52 
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Did you make that up on the fly Roz?

Im impressed... even for you. :D




p.s. this thread stinks and is very frustrating.... I hope it ends or I loose my eyesite, whichever comes first.


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PostPosted: Jul 25th, '12, 22:05 
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I thought rupes post was the most interesting out of these 22!!!!!!!!!!!! pages of absolute dribble



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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '12, 00:43 
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When you are a wheelchair bound minority, what else are you going to do with your time. The lies part was just practice for his novel. But because he had no ability to do any work in his village, he could not afford a typewriter to type his manuscript on. It was going to be the next I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings and I am very disappointed that I will not ever be able to read this masterpiece! We will be holding a candlelight vigil for Tommy on Thursday.


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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '12, 00:53 
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So in 22 pages, I'm not sure the obvious question has been asked. Can we get a show of hands of people that consider themselves Environmentalists? Because I have a strong feeling that calling environmentalists bad here is a lot like calling African Americans bad in a Southern Baptist church.

I'll start by raising my hand, yes, I am a Watermelon, I mean Environmentalist.

Watermelon is yummy...


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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '12, 01:22 
Don't know... but I sure as hell don't want to be the one in the wheelchair in Liberatarian Utopia...

You just can't trust that the rest of the bastards are gunna keep the Liberatarian faith.... :lol:


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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '12, 04:32 
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I'm a bannana. Yellow on the outside, white in the middle.


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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '12, 05:07 
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I did mention "(charity aside)" for the reason that it is a different debate, which I would like to go into later. Is it possible to address the issues I spent all that time writing about regarding junk food and fat people and maybe the validity of property rights ?
Jumping around with addressing specific issues is pointless :D

EDIT: I do appreciate your story Rupe :)


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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '12, 05:43 
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SuperVeg wrote:
I did mention "(charity aside)" for the reason that it is a different debate, which I would like to go into later. Is it possible to address the issues I spent all that time writing about regarding junk food and fat people and maybe the validity of property rights ?
Jumping around with addressing specific issues is pointless :D

EDIT: I do appreciate your story Rupe :)


Good post EB!!!






:?:


Wait :think:


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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '12, 07:12 
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Ronmaggi wrote:
So in 22 pages, I'm not sure the obvious question has been asked. Can we get a show of hands of people that consider themselves Environmentalists? Because I have a strong feeling that calling environmentalists bad here is a lot like calling African Americans bad in a Southern Baptist church.

I'll start by raising my hand, yes, I am a Watermelon, I mean Environmentalist.

Watermelon is yummy...


I agree, If I had seen the political party poll before I made the first post I woudn't have made that first post. I would have brought up the issue, but certainly not like that.
So I do apologise for any offence caused...my bad :think:


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PostPosted: Jul 26th, '12, 07:21 
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Just a cherrypick comment from a topic at the start of the thread.

I only give to charity where I can get a receipt. My effective tax rate is about 35%

If the taxes were lowered, as they have since 2000, I give less to charity.

When the top tax bracket was 60k, I gave more to charity than now when the top bracket is 180k.


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