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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 12:06 
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orcy2010 wrote:

as for those that refuse to have or have their kids vaccinated, thats fine, but stay out of my kids childcare centre/school/playgroup/sports team. In fact, just stay away from all public places, then we are both safe. just look at the current measles epidemic in the UK if you want to understand what happens when not enough kids get their shots. and thats just one disease.



If you and your kids are vaccinated then what does it matter? Either it works and you and your kids are safe or it doesn't and getting it is useless. You can't have it both ways. If your kids have the shot then it should not matter to you if my kids get it. BTW my kids will not get the flu shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 12:20 
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ok, fine, dont vaccinate your kids. let these diseases get a foothold in the community. lets not worry about those kids that cant be vaccinated for valid reasons (like allergies to eggs, etc). they can just fight it out with nature when the time comes and your kid passes something on to them. They'll probably both die anway, so I guess it will work out in the end.

you do know that its completely insane not to vaccinate your kids, right? and that all the "evidence" that says otherwise was completely fabricated, and the scientist who made it up charged with fraud. right?


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 12:29 
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Don't care, I am not exposing my kids to a risk because your kids have a weak immune system. Survival of the fittest, natures way. Like I said, if the vaccine works than your vaccinated kids have nothing to worry about. If your vaccinated kids have something to worry about, then apparently the vaccination does not work.


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 13:22 
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We are so glad you care about the rest of the community. Hey why don't we all not vaccinate our kids so that they all start dieing of hooping cough, measals and polio etc


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 14:00 
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It isn't hard to fabricate evidence. Commonly used to justify vaccines are the statistics from the early days, yet the moment it is mentioned that polio, (as just one of many expamples) was decreasing in the community BEFORE the vaccines came out, we get told the doctors in those days couldn't diagnose polio properly and so the figures before vaccines were vastly inflated... which means, if true, that polio was NEVER the problem it is made out to have been.

It's also the same 'adjustment' justification we see in Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) scenarios where, when it is pointed out that the hottest year in history was in the 1930's, the temps from back then get adjusted down because the people making measurements back then were not skilled enough to read their thermometers properly.

It's just more bad science, where the data is modified to support the currently accepted 'consensus' thesis, and like AGW, the vaccine issue is not easily addressed because the effects are almost all decades down the track. Aluminium is strongly linked to Alzheimer's so unless we suddenly see teens and young adults getting Alzheimer's, the effects of these vaccines will be paid for by the grandchildren of those being infected... sorry, vaccinated, right now.

Polio vaccine has caused major problems in India last year - AFTER India was declared polio-free, and the variety of illness that comes from the vaccine is much worse than the original polio.
Quote:
Polio Vaccine Campaigns and Increases In Deadly Polio-Like Disease in Children

A paper published earlier this year in the Indian Journal of Medical Ethics should have made headlines around the globe, as it estimated there were 47,500 cases of a polio-like condition linked to children in India receiving repeated doses of oral polio vaccine in 2011 alone. The incidence of non-polio Accute Flaccid Paralysis (AFP) in India is now 12 times higher than expected and coincides with huge increases in OPV doses being given to children in the quest to “eradicate” wild type polio infection and paralysis.

Researchers reported:
"…while India has been polio-free for a year, there has been a huge increase in non-polio acute flaccid paralysis (NPAFP). In 2011, there were an extra 47,500 new cases of NPAFP. Clinically indistinguishable from polio paralysis but twice as deadly, the incidence of NPAFP was directly proportional to doses of oral polio received. Though this data was collected within the polio surveillance system, it was not investigated. The principle of primum-non-nocere [First, do no harm] was violated."

Added to the dangers of thimerol and aluminium, we now have squalene as an adjuvant - squalene has been strongly linked to 'Gulf War Syndrome' and the dosage in civilian vaccines is MUCH higher than in what the soldiers got.

I am happy to have a debate about such issues, because I have been tracking both Science and the stuff that gets called Science in recent times for several decades. But statements like 'it's completely insane not to vaccinate' are not helpful. Such pejoratives inflame rather than draw useful comment.

Not only are there doubts as to the efficacy of vaccines in general (due to a whole range of factors from manipulated data, poor QA processes, incorrect usage, and an increasing number of dangerous adjuvants designed to maximise profits for Big Pharma) the advisability of providing them to children is highly doubtful.

Newborns do not have the immune systems they will eventually develop and in fact, many antibodies reaching a newborn's system will suppress rather than enhance the immune response. Giving the vaccine to pregnant women is not a good idea for this and other reasons - it is likely to harm the child's development not improve it. Having a child meet the antibody before the antigen is another factor which can suppress response to that antigen.

And then there's the issue I mentioned above - injecting a flu vaccine is... well, maybe not useless, but unlikely to provide the protection the average person thinks it does - in fact it is more likely the protection they get comes from placebo effects. Because the injection is bypassing the immune system that the body uses to stop viruses and other pathogens, there is no increased immunity for the vaccinated that will stop the flu virus getting in and establishing - the most the vaccine can do is suppress it once it starts floating around the blood stream looking for new territories.

Which means any vaccine dealing with viruses might help reduce the death rate but it has very little effect on transmission - the unvaccinated child is as likely to be at risk from all the vaccinated ones around them as from other unvaccinated children! More so probably because the reliance of parents on the invincibility of the vaccine means they will send their kids to school anyway, where the unvaccinated are more likely to be kept home for care once they show any signs.


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 14:54 
You trotted out that garbage from India previously....

It related to "non polio" acute flaccid paralysis..... caused by a dodgy untested oral vaccine...

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1540&p=371486&hilit=polio#p371486

I have some problem with those that don't vaccinate their kids, or themselves... but in the end it's a personal choice...

But I have no time for the absolute crap and bullshit... trotted out as "science"... by the lunatic fringe anti-vaccine websites and blogs....


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 14:59 
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Here here


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 15:05 
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Hey RoO, way to go on the calm and rational dialogue. It's passing strange how performing the actions of Science, real Science, by questioning the theory and evidence and being a sceptic until the proof is in gets so many true believers so vitriolic so fast.

Believe it or not, the side effects of dodgy vaccines IS a part of the vaccine scene. Add in wrong virus, live virus, adjuvants, old dosages vaccines and a few other issues such as poor practices of data provenance and there are more than enough reasons to steer clear of vaccines.

i.e. just because it isn't Polio DOESN'T mean it isn't related to the dangers of vaccines - and NONE of the MSM sources told anyone about 47,500 people getting sick from vaccines.

Personally I'm not much of a believer in things presented by people making billions out of getting us to believe what they present. Tends to mess up the chances of finding out the truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 15:23 
I have no trouble with scepticism... or establishing the truth through ongoing scientific research/data... none what so ever...

But the anti-vaccine movement.. is neither calm, rational.. or concerned with scientific data....

In the "Indian" case quoted... yes it was an intended vaccine... but the fact remains that it was an old style untested.. oral vaccine...

Any untested... or dodgy medicine... and sadly there's a lot of "Indian" based dodgy medicines on the world market... would get the same condemnation....

The point is the rabid anti-vaccine movement... continually trots out.. either unscientific data... or, as in the above case... misrepresents... or misinterprets what the data represents...

And I call them rabid... because of the above... and the hysteria they attempt to create... based on nonsense...

If you want to decline vaccinations based on your own personal beliefs.... even if there isn't any real scientific basis for doing so.... go for your life...

If you child dies from contracting a preventable vaccineable illness... then I would fully support your children's grandparents in any suit/complaint... of child abuse..... :D


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 15:33 
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We can't put our dog in the kennels when we go on holiday unless we show a current certificate of vaccination... it should be the same for kids in schools.

As I mentioned in the previous thread about vaccinations, my wife works with kids, a number of whom aren't vaccinated by their "educated" parents, couple of years ago there was a whooping cough epidemic and my wife contracted it... adults aren't immune, even if vaccinated as kids, immunity wears off by early teens... late teens and adults should have themselves revaccinated.

My daughter also contracted it from my wife, but being vaccinated only 8 or 9 years earlier my daughter got over it much quicker, she only had severe symptoms for three weeks, but it's still terrible to watch someone go through it, especially when there is nothing you can do for them. My wife on the other hand, she had it for over three months and broke ribs from coughing. A number of her work colleagues were also affected for long periods, 3-4 months of constant coughing, immense pain and very little sleep.

During the epidemic scores of children and infants were hospitalised for it, some died from it... a disease that can be easily controlled, or almost entirely eliminated... and was in Australia... until recently.

During the outbreak a couple of years ago there was a TV article in which a health official told of how the rise in whooping cough cases leading up to the epidemic was directly related to the amount of children not being vaccinated. Before the epidemic whooping cough hadn't been an issue in Australia for decades...

...how long will it be before we have a polio outbreak thanks to these "educated" parents?... it will be the children of these educated parents that will suffer the most... you don't get over polio like you get over whooping cough.


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 15:41 
Mr Damage wrote:
...how long will it be before we have a polio outbreak thanks to these "educated" parents?... it will be the children of these educated parents that will suffer the most... you don't get over polio like you get over whooping cough.

Nope... the two kids with steel braces on their polio affected legs....who started primary school when I was a kid....

Never got to get rid of their braces... and both died young...

Never saw another kid with polio, or braces... not only for the rest of my school life (post vaccination)... but through out my adult life....

And I hope I never do....

As for "whooping cough".... if you want to afflict that upon your child... and I don't think you have the right to...

Fine... when they start croaking like a seal... keep them at home... throw them a ball and a wet fish...

But don't trot them through the supermarket... croaking, coughing and spluttering their poor miserable lungs and germs out... into public space...


Last edited by RupertofOZ on Apr 21st, '13, 15:45, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 15:45 
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Mr. Damage,

You know that the recent outbreaks of whooping cough are not due to the same strains of pertussis that are vaccinated for, don't you?

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/whoopi ... f-vaccine/


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 15:56 
And there yet again.. is the kind of deliberate hysterical fear mongering misrepresentation.. I refer to...

the article you link to boldly says...

Quote:
Whooping Cough Epidemic Caused by Virulent New Pertussis Strain—And It’s the Result of Vaccine

And then goes on to refer to.... Mooi et al paper.... and attributes, or infers that the above was what they suggested....

They didn't... here's what they said...

Quote:
We propose that the crucial event, which shifted the competitive balance between ptxP1 and ptxP3 strains, was the removal by vaccination of immunologically naive infants as the major source for transmission, selecting for strains, which are more efficiently transmitted by primed hosts. Recent studies and historical data indicate an important role of naïve infants in transmission in unvaccinated populations. In a previously unvaccinated population, infant vaccination resulted in a reduction in pertussis in the vaccinated and unvaccinated parts of the population (37). Furthermore, in unvaccinated populations, 60%–80% of the pertussis cases were found in children 0–5 years of age, most of whom were probably immunologically naive (32,38). In most countries infants receive their first vaccination at the age of 2 or 3 months, essentially eliminating transmission by immunologically naive hosts. In primed hosts, increased Ptx production may delay an effective immune response (24–26) enhancing transmission, and hence, pathogen fitness. Increased Ptx production may also be beneficial for the pathogen because the host requires higher levels of antibodies against Ptx for toxin neutralization. The antigenic divergence observed between vaccine strains and circulating strains (8,9) may act synergistically with the ptxP3 polymorphism by enhancing transmission by hosts primed by vaccination. Pertussis among recently vaccinated children is rare, indicating that pathogen adaptation does not play a role unless immunity has waned. Thus, we propose that waning immunity and pathogen adaptation have contributed to the resurgence of pertussis, although other factors such as increased awareness and improved diagnostics have also played a role.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2815961/


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 16:56 
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Oh dear... what have I started!

:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Flu shots...?
PostPosted: Apr 21st, '13, 17:01 
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I have never heard of a fish who had the flu.

Here is something about fish oil and the flu:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/artic ... g-flu.html


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