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PostPosted: Apr 28th, '09, 22:51 
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RupertofOZ wrote:
My understanding was that the inversion layer created by carbon dioxide, methane and other greenhouse gas pollutants, thus trapping the heat in the earth's atmosphere.... was largely responsible for warming...

Clear, clean air... IMO... is the solution to the problem... :wink:

I guess this is just an issue of clarity on my part- don't worry it happens all the time to me- social skills are something that I am still working on and something that I will probably never perfect. I have no problem clarifing myself, I don't with to be misunderstood for the wrong reasons.
Last time, I accidentally pissed off hygicell- we are on another chat room and he was catching a lot of flack from some of the people there, so I suggeted that he come to this forum but I used the word "go" in the sentence. Already on the defence, he thought that I was suggesting he leave the chat room- I had to explain myself clearer. He is very passionate about what he feels and sometimes, he gets misunderstood as well. I believe you have that same problem with a few people here.

Now, to the heart of matter- according to this article, we have to remove the greenhouse gasses before we eliminate the particulate matter in the air or we will face an incredible jump in temperatures that could potential desertify the Amazon river basin. Not too hard a senario to imagine when you consider this...

Amazon drought emergency widens
A worsening drought in the Amazon basin has prompted Brazil to extend an emergency across the Amazonas state.
Big ships have been left stranded in the world's second-largest river and millions of fish are rotting in the sun, witnesses say.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4344310.stm


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PostPosted: Apr 28th, '09, 22:53 
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That should say "wish to be misunderstood". My brain works faster than my fingers can type.


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PostPosted: Apr 28th, '09, 22:58 
Agree with you Angie... and I should have added "particulate" matter to my initial list...

It's all part of the same problem... and all part of the same solution.... stop putting the crap into the atmosphere... and our rivers... and oceans... :wink:


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 01:33 
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A really interesting article about food.... Main points.

Quote:
washingtonpost.com

Crave Man
David Kessler Knew That Some Foods Are Hard to Resist; Now He Knows Why

By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, April 27, 2009

He went in the middle of the night, long after the last employee had locked up the Chili's Grill and Bar. He'd steer his car around the back, check to make sure no one was around and then quietly approach the dumpster.

If anyone noticed the man foraging through the trash, they would have assumed he was a vagrant. Except he was wearing black dress slacks and padded gardening gloves. "I'm surprised he didn't wear a tie," his wife said dryly.

The high-octane career path of David A. Kessler, the Harvard-trained doctor, lawyer, medical school dean and former commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration had come to this: nocturnal dumpster diving. Sometimes, he would just reach in. Other times, he would climb in.
......

It took many of these forays until Kessler emerged with his prize: ingredient labels affixed to empty cardboard boxes that spelled out the fats, salt and sugar used to make the Southwestern Eggrolls, Boneless Shanghai Wings and other dishes served by the nation's second-largest restaurant chain.

Kessler was on a mission to understand a problem that has vexed him since childhood: why he can't resist certain foods.

His resulting theory, described in his new book, "The End of Overeating," is startling. Foods high in fat, salt and sugar alter the brain's chemistry in ways that compel people to overeat. "Much of the scientific research around overeating has been physiology -- what's going on in our body," he said. "The real question is what's going on in our brain."

.....

The labels showed the foods were bathed in salt, fat and sugars, beyond what a diner might expect by reading the menu, Kessler said. The ingredient list for Southwestern Eggrolls mentioned salt eight different times; sugars showed up five times. The "egg rolls," which are deep-fried in fat, contain chicken that has been chopped up like meatloaf to give it a "melt in the mouth" quality that also makes it faster to eat. By the time a diner has finished this appetizer, she has consumed 910 calories, 57 grams of fat and 1,960 milligrams of sodium.

Instead of satisfying hunger, the salt-fat-sugar combination will stimulate that diner's brain to crave more, Kessler said. For many, the come-on offered by Lay's Potato Chips -- "Betcha can't eat just one" -- is scientifically accurate. And the food industry manipulates this neurological response, designing foods to induce people to eat more than they should or even want, Kessler found.

.....

"The challenge is how do we explain to America what's going on -- how do we break through and help people understand how their brains have been captured?" he said.


.....

Whether government ought to exercise tougher controls over the food industry is going to be the next great debate, especially since much of the advertising is aimed at children, Kessler said.

"The food the industry is selling is much more powerful than we realized," he said. "I used to think I ate to feel full. Now I know, we have the science that shows, we're eating to stimulate ourselves. And so the question is what are we going to do about it?"

....

"Highly palatable" foods -- those containing fat, sugar and salt -- stimulate the brain to release dopamine, the neurotransmitter associated with the pleasure center, he found. In time, the brain gets wired so that dopamine pathways light up at the mere suggestion of the food, such as driving past a fast-food restaurant, and the urge to eat the food grows insistent. Once the food is eaten, the brain releases opioids, which bring emotional relief. Together, dopamine and opioids create a pathway that can activate every time a person is reminded about the particular food. This happens regardless of whether the person is hungry.

Not everyone is vulnerable to "conditioned overeating" -- Kessler estimates that about 15 percent of the population is not affected and says more research is needed to understand what makes them immune. .............
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 11_pf.html Underlining is mine....


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 04:21 
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Someone needs to go on oprah, or dr. phil; I choose cyara & rupert


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 04:30 
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Or Jerry Springer and have at it with some chairs ;)


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 07:15 
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earlier on this thread there was a debate over global warming. i went to a lecture by prof ian low, who is not to be missed if you get a chance to see him... he was saying that the term global warming was a catch phrase to explain one part of the climate change scenario..

the real concern is climate change.. how or why it occured doesnt really matter.. but what we have got to do is the most important aspect.. planning, managing the resources left and identifying new ones.. and living more sustainably!!


also... i have pondered this for some time...

we take so much oil out of this earth... i think we consume 85 million barrels a day.... this oil comes out as a heavy liquid and is burnt off and released as a gas... does this or will this eventually change the weight of the earth and thus its oribit?? the earth just tilts a little to give us summer and winter... if the earth is lighter in weight, would it be drawn closer in orbit to the sun????

well thats my bit... off to the rain forest again and sit and ponder a bit more.... :)


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 07:19 
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Actually as a vapor it would distribute about the Earth more evenly. The total mass remains the same, only the phase changes.

/science

:)


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 08:03 
aLostHippy wrote:
does this or will this eventually change the weight of the earth and thus its oribit??


As Tamo says... the mass stays roughly the same.... the earths orbit around the sun is elliptical, and slightly variable anyway... due to the "wobble" of the earth as it spins on it's axis...

And history suggests that the speed at which the earth rotates also varies... at times speeding up, and at others slowing down... quite dramatically....

This is postulated to be the result of a cycle of strengthening and weakening of the earths magnetic field....

And a point is ultimately reached where the field is so weakened, and the rotational speed slowed... to the point that the magnetic poles actually invert...."flip" north to south...

There is evidence that this has occurred about 14-15 times in the earths history... it is known that the last inversion of the magnetic poles occurred in the year 13,200 BC, and it is suspected that this date exactly coincides with the disappearance of the dinosaurs.

The earth reached it's maximum magnetic intensity about 2000 years ago... and is now rapidly approaching it's minimum intensity... and slowest rotational spin.... our days are actually longer now than 2000 years ago...

In the scale of 1 to 10, being 10 the measure of the strongest magnetism, in 1996 we were at 1.5 and now we are below 1. This indicator shows us that we are on the verge of an inversion of the magnetic poles that, according to the well informed, will happen before the end of the year 2012. (the very point at which the Mayan calendaer ceases... :wink:)

So for now the Earth will continue to rotate around itself each time slower, until the moment comes when it will be at standstill We will remain in a null state of magnetism for approximately three days and then our planet will start rotating in the opposite way.

As it rotates in an inversed motion, where before was the magnetic north pole now will be the south pole, and where before was the magnetic south pole we have now the north pole.

Realize that this change is given only at the electromagnetic levels and it is not saying that the Earth is going to physically jump upside down 180 degrees.

During the three days when the Earth remains at standstill, half of the planet will be facing the sun and will have a very long day and the other half will observe a prolonged night.

There are ancient narrations that recount a similar experience, and that make us suspect that this polar inversion was lived on Earth in a more recent time than the previously recorded one. The Bible tells that Joshua "commanded the sun to stop".

Also papyruses of the ancient Egypt recount that once there was a very long day in which the sun came out first by the West and hid by the East, and then, without passing the night, it came out by the East and hid by the West.

From the antipodes in Peru we have the testimony of the ancient Incas who, by the same time, experienced a very long night in which "there was no dawn for over twenty hours".

And you thought climate change was a worry.... :lol:


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 09:37 
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I know this is off-topic but I felt that everyone here should be aware- the scientists just renamed the swine flu to H1N1. This has a huge significance becaue it relates to the specific protein traits of this particular virus. It is also the same as the dreaded Spanish flu of 1918. In the name H1N1 the "H" refers to the hemagglutinin protein, and the "N" refers to the neuraminidase protein. Hemagglutinin (H) is responsible for binding the virus to the cell that is being infected. Neuraminidase (N) promotes the virus release from infected cells and facilitates virus spread within the respiratory tract.
In addition to the proteins being the same, it has a lot of the same MO as the Spanish flu in that it is most lethal in young and healthy adults, as opposed to the very young and the elderly.
So far it's tracking about 7% kill rate in Mexico but not as lethal as yet, in the U.S.
Everyone be safe.

Previous Flu Strains
1889- 90, Russian flu, Type A (H2N2)
1957-58, Asian flu,Type A (H2N2)
1968-69, Hong Kong flu, Type A (H3N2)
Asia in the 1990s- Avian flu- influenza Type A (H5N1)
Spanish flu- influenza Type A (H1N1)
Swine flu- influeza Type A (H1N1)

Spanish flu
Main article: 1918 flu pandemic
The Spanish flu, also known as La Gripe Española, or La Pesadilla, was an unusually severe and deadly strain of avian influenza, a viral infectious disease, that killed some 50 million to 100 million people worldwide over about a year in 1918 and 1919. It is thought to be one of the most deadly pandemics in human history. It was caused by the H1N1 type of influenza virus, which is similar to bird flu of today, mainly H5N1 and H5N2.
The Spanish flu caused an unusual number of deaths because it, like H5N1, caused a cytokine storm in the body. The virus infected lung cells, leading to overstimulation of the immune system via release of cytokine bursts into the lung tissue. This leads to extensive leukocyte migration towards the lungs, causing destruction of lung tissue and secretion of liquid into the organ, making it difficult for the patient to breathe. People with strong immune systems (such as young adults) were more susceptible to the disease than young children and the elderly.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_ ... btype_H1N1
http://www.cdc.gov/swineflu/


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 10:27 
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hydrophilia wrote:
BatonRouge Bill wrote:
The globe cooled over the last 9 years so that shouldn't be the answer to why this is happening but maybe. >.....<Every time I think about the volcano in the Philippine islands that erupted in the early 80's that spewed out more C02 than mankind has made since the beginning of time I can't help but think that it's plain vanity to think we are responsible for warming the globe.


Ummm...the info I've found says that while the last couple years were a bit cooler, something like 7 of the hottest years in history were in the last ten years. And Pinatubo put out something like 42Mtons to 350Mtons during it's eruption, compared to 70Mtons per day, 25billion tons per year for humans. There are some widely and happily quoted errors out there that do not help with an accurate debate. Too bad we don't have folks who both sides see as honestly vetting information rather than having trusted folks (on either side) who are happy to use errors, exaggerations, or lies to advance their arguments.

Here is an interesting link: http://cce.890m.com/intro/

Here is some research I did some time back about the carbon cycle.
The 25 billion ton is 3x larger than any other I found. And we probably can get some somewhat unbiased info on global warming from Noaa the National weather service.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4539&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=60


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 10:48 
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I stand corrected on the global cooling for the last 9 years.
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/re ... dec-pg.gif


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 11:11 
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Always an intertesting debate ,, as usual it attracts radical non facts from both sides.

Rupert , everyone knows the Sun orbits the earth and the eARTH IS FLAT,,, PLEASE TRY AND STAY WITH FACTS:)

So what is the answer?? I type this on my laptop , sucking up power from hydrocarbons , made essentially from hydrocarbons , transported to my home by burning hydrocarbons.AM i willing to give up all these things??? well no I'm not.

The basic law of economics can help here ,, " Unlimited wants and limited resources". You want the world to use less petyrol , then make it expensive. I suggest a price around $5 per litre would see substantial reductions in usage. AHHH now watch the poorer people scream???? They don't want to give up the convenience of a car either.
That IS the real problem ,, no-one wants to sacrifice , they merely want to blame ,, blame the governement , blame the Mega companies ,, blame anyone but us. I mean how dare those companies and governments give us what we want???
Then these "blamers" start throwing out rediculous statements ,, the governement should..... blah blah blah. BHP and Woolworths should ... blah blah blah.
All the useless alternatives keep getting thrown up ,, Solar this solar that ..... wind this wind that ..... what a load of DUNG. The facts are we simnply do NOT have the technology available to make these alternatives realistic. Take a look at wind power ,, what a waste of time and money,,,,For a start the wind doesn't blow all the time ..... and another very important fact is wind tends to be strongest in Autumn and Spring ..... yep the half a year we need less power is the half a year the wind blows a more.
Nuclear power ,, now here is a reALISTIC ALTERNATIVE ,, BUT WATCH THE GREENIES SCREAM ABOUT THAT . tHE ONLY REAL PROBLEM WITH NUCLEAR POWER IS GETTING RID OF THE WASTE. sHOOT IT AQT THE SUN?? EXPENSIVE BUT THEN WE GET BACK TO COSTS AGAIN ..... WILL USERS BE WILLING TO PAY MORE FOR THERE POWER?
We can go round and round , chasing our tales or we could just CHILL , enjoy the warmer weather , I mean after all , most people love a holiday in the tropics:) Lay under a Coconut treee growing in the antarctic and realiser its too late ,, Man-kind is set on the road to Earths destruction , so best we concentrate on advancement in technologyu so we can get OFF this planet we have turned into a giant toilet.


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 11:35 
Ahhhh .... welcome back Chappo .... :lol:


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PostPosted: Apr 29th, '09, 11:46 
Chappo wrote:
Rupert , everyone knows the Sun orbits the earth and the eARTH IS FLAT,,, PLEASE TRY AND STAY WITH FACTS:)


Chappo... I would have agreed with you up until recently... however it is now a well known fact that the sun rises and shines from somewhere around Waverley... or at least somewhere within the electorate of Wentworth.... just ask Malcolm... :wink:

No doubt when the earths polarity reverses... Mr Turnball will use the event to justify his most recent about face... and not doubt maintain it is yet another sign of his ordained destiny... :lol:

And you need be in no doubt... that he will impose ALL of your suggestions... regardless of any willingness on our part... :wink:


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