Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

would you mind leaving religion out of the discussion, Tony
I happen to not have the same conviction as you (though less outspoken)
but I do respect other people's religiosity
including religion would impede me from letting my thoughts ramble

frank

+1 Tony. Your ramblings were greatly appreciated. Free speech is a wonderful thing!

A poem .......

ENTROPY

When choices were few we could see
Every consequence and agree
As wisdom guided right choice
With a clear and simple voice

But clever and complex man-made
Called not a spade a spade
Increasing inventive display
Turning black and white into grey

All those juggling pragmatic solutions
Each one with his own substitutions
Chaotic morass in foolish nuance
Gave to Greed its fighting chance

Technology wins the day
In the hands of the few who have say
As they herd the rest into paying the bill
While believing they have a say still

For just see how ground-breaking work
Is now something we quick choose to shirk
And replace with endless exercise
To work off those oil-soaked french fries

Media seduced into slavery
Inoculating out bravery
As apathy in soaking paralysis
Clamours unending analysis

I’ll watch clever catch clever again
In some old-sold-as-new refrain
About man-as-own-god solution
As we wallow in history’s pollution

CHELLE LEIGH©

Like the native americans say. We must live in balance or we will be unhealthy. They state this in 6 directions. North, the path of most of us is knowledge. East is spiritual, west is doing/action, south is emotion, up is sky/air, and down is earth. When we forsake any direction we are out of balance. In the case of using our knowledge to get good emotions forsaking the rest we will be unhealthy. Our air is getting worse and the earth is being damaged. At some point there will be some payback.

I am raising beef because its a luxury to have. Truly, raising fish and veggies are a very good way to go and if the stuff hits the fan then fish and veggies will be my diet. My goal is to have balance and retire on my land taking as little of my substance from outside my land as possible. I only wish I could be living this way now.

Chelle- Your poen is nicely done. You have a gift. I will reread it several times to try to digest it fully.

Frank- My thoughts are my own. I will try to be careful with my writing however so as as not to offend, though I can no more seperate my beliefs from 'me' than a chicken could lay an egg without a shell. Perhaps others could try not to take offense at my beliefs as I will try not to take offense at theirs. It is totally OK with me if they find my thought poppy *butterflies*. I think this is behind the meaning of tolerance.

"Religion" is a tricky thing. Most people have a belief system, however many of those don't have titles. I have known vegans who are very "religious" with their beliefs (though they would say they aren't religious beliefs), some staunch pagans who didn't really understand what they believed, and some Christians who didn't have a clue. I also have a friend that I disagree with about 90% of what he believesa and still manage to have lunch with him every week.

I hope that my personal belief in intelligent design doesn't hinder people from expressing themselves at BYAP, and I will not prosyltize, but I can not be other than I am and still walk (or write) with integrity. My intracyclic dynamics work is firmly based in intelligent design.

Indeed, if BYAP (as an organization) is not tolerant of peoples views, or the basis of their views, I will not force myself on them, and I certainly don't want to go to war over this. Much appreciation for your directness though. Cheers!

Tony

my friendly request to leave religion out of the discussion is interpreted as an infringement on freedom of speech
and it is rejected
so be it
I cannot and will not say any more on this thread
as not only the mood is now set
but also as that would be contrary to what I wrote before
that is that I respect people's religiosity
so for the sake of your freedom of speech
I will shut up

frank

Frank your knowlegeable input on these type of topic discussions are always appreciated, and will be missed if you choose not to participate. While I also share some of those same religious beliefs, I do not think it is too much to ask to leave religion out of these discussions.

thanks, Bill
sincerely

frank
PS I do too share at least the moral part of these beliefs
but you already know that

It is the freedom of speech on this forum that has made it such a rich experience for all. Speaking from the heart is what integrity is about. To deny this to some, in order to allow such freedom for ourselves is ungracious. An attempt to shape spoken opinion to please ourselves alone. In no way did Tony strive to give offence but simply spoke naturally his thoughts as they came. I, personally, loved his writing for its sincerity. It was thought provoking.

A pity it is thought that one - or another - has to shut up. Or even trim what comes from the heart. That is how walls are built. Speak your mind Frank. And let Tony speak his. And me speak mine. And hey.... if we tussle.... sure makes life interesting! There is excellent moderation on this forum. And mature adults.......

Legalistic labelling of some views as acceptable over others, is where trouble begins. Live and let live. Freedom of speech is just that... freedom. To give or take offence takes away that freedom from another.

Let God have His say too! (I know..... time to exit! FAST! )

For some people, how they see the future is entirely related to their beliefs, whether it be a deity or veganism or whatever.

As long as we respect each other, allow each other space for everyone's beliefs, and don't push our own beliefs or proselytise at others, we can all get along nicely. Religion can be mentioned in context with discussions.

Play nicely folks. Thanks.

believe me,
it is better if I stay out of this discussion

It is my experience that even held in the most circumspect way
very few people accept even the slightest form of criticism when it comes to religion
even go looking for criticism where there is none

the repeated insinuation that my request was an attempt to deny freedom of speech shows this

it is my own decision to leave the thread
I do it out of respect for your religion

rest assured, I do not feel rejected as a person
only my request was rejected, not me
I accept that
and take the consequence that my freedom ends where others feel their freedom threatened

frank

Pity you see it that way. Wish you could allow room for all. A paradigm of acceptance that allows something to be really important to someone else and not take issue with it.

You have lots of value to add ............ and different types of people is what adds to the richness of discussion on this forum. If, as you say, you feel any religious context leads to conflict then make no comment on the context and no conflict will result. If you wish to make an issue of it then enjoy the result.... It is called LIFE and who wants it boring?

If you choose to withold yourself then that is your perogative. I know I would prefer that you didn't.

Darn I hate to agree with Frank but this is the case a lot of the time. I take people and there religion in stride and don't judge unless they nail puppies to trees. Religion is the opiate of the masses and should not be the focal point in a decision on another non religious topic.

thanks for the repeated invitation, Chelle.
I believe you to be sincere with it.

but no thanks
the mere nature of this subject is bound to lead to conflict if religion is included
in fact it has already happened
which is exactly what I want to avoid
still for which I have apologized

I would rather not take the risk of it happening again


wish you would not repeat that, Chelle, as it is not true that I don't

I repeat that my freedom ends where others feel their freedom threatened
I also repeat that I don't take offense in the refusal of my request
nor do I feel my freedom threatened

I have set this boundary to my freedom myself
that is my choice

frank

Hey Duff! Can't let that go..... What religious focal point?

Frank turned the subject to religion in a way that raised the question of freedom of speech. That is the true debate. You just picked up on him making religion the issue again.

That your opiate is different to my opiate is OK with me too! .........No fight from me...........
But I know you want the freedom to say so, as much as I do

And I thought today might be boring.....

well in my case everytime I want to talk religion, the person I'm talking to snaps me! it's like I have no affinity for it so basically if you don't empathise with the person you're talking to in regards to religion, particularly when they're the more religious one of the pair of you!

my only religion is that swearing and killing is 100% not on. that's all... yes, that means everything else is a game... I look at life like a huge game. Which I think is my problem with everyone else when I talk religion..