Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

This is the sort of statement that attracts such comments. RFFs are not needed and media beds are fine unless there is some reason why you want to load a system beyond its media filtration capabilities.

A new person isn't aware of the issues until they have done their research. All to often and particularly on a number of other websites they find out about RFFs and then they appear here with one in their design without a clue as to why.

If they have a reason why they can tell us and it will immediately shows that they have at least some idea as to why they would want one. Frequently the only reason they want one is because they have been told they need one.

In my experience there are two principle reasons for the behaviour you are criticising regarding the frequent questioning of peoples need for solids removal components.

1. We have had a number of people on this forum and there are a number of people and some entire communities that insists that the removal of solids from a system is essential and that systems will catastrophically fail if solids are not removed. This ideology invites contradiction.

2. New people having been influenced by information supplied by the former believe they need solids removal components. This misconception invites those with more experience to provide more accurate information.

I think it's that exact attitude Stuart which people have issues with.. you seem to like putting people down as 'newbies' etc etc

It comes across as pretty arrogant mate.. no one has all the answers to life, despite what post count one has

the post count thing seems to come up on most forums.

You are correct though stuart, i concede that there is a reason for it.

If only i had time and enough knowledge (and knowledge of the forums thread database) i would write up a few threads/ walkthroughs so we can have most of the repeated information in the newbie corner so these things dont even have to come up. But then forum activity would mostly collapse.

Hey thanks Ron! Arrrrrr!

I just wanted to chime in for a moment on this...

The biggest problem with media beds as sole filtration is that by doing so you severely limit your control of many aspects in your ap system. Feeding rates, removal of solids/wastes, mineralization time, buffer amounts, water temp... Everything is connected. Example: If you use a media bed and constantly run a 7.3pH, how do you add calcium? It can be stable, it can take all your wastes if properly sized BUT it can't give you the control needed to precisely add what is needed when it is needed. What do you do? Tell the fecal matter to hurry up and break down so the ph will start dropping again and allow for an addition of cal?

If plumbed properly, labor involved in solids removal is nill... I think I spend 4minutes a day total for my operation. Turn some valves till they run clear, turn them back. It takes me longer to Feed and milk my one nippled goat!
If you're in there pailing out waste water with a 5 gal bucket it may get labor intensive but other than that... notta. I plan to automate this down the road for $700 and there will be zero minutes a day used for this.

I think it's "easier" for a backyarder to get started with media b/c there is less to do and design but as your knowledge in ap grows, so does the potential for better production while adopting other ap technologies that allow for finer control of water quality parameters within the system.

My post count sucks so take what you will haha

Me thinks our friend Ryan hit it on the nose (and to a large extent I think it is much the same thing as Stuart said, just saying it a different way.)

Media beds for a first time backyard system is just simple and easy to learn on. You don't have to figure out your plant spacing before you can plant, you don't have to have extra supplemental aeration for your plant beds, you don't have to have separate solids and bio-filtration. All it really requires is a couple containers, a pump and some gravel and plumbing.

This forum has tons of systems with tons of different design options (as does the IBC of Aquaponics.)
I don't really see anything wrong with the large quantity of people here who will recommend and direct people to the simplest system design first. If people know a little more, then they will know enough to ask the right questions and can figure out even more from that. If they don't know what an RFF, SLO, vortex or Swirl are, well then they can learn those things and after they learn about it they will be better prepared to figure out if it is an extra piece of gear which they actually need or if it would be just extra expense and waste.

It isn't like people are being charged to use the forum, nor as if there is some international certifying agency to dictate what information should be shared about aquaponics and HOW it should be shared. Read people's threads and look at what they are doing. If you think that what they are doing is great, then follow their advice. If they can't show anything then it is up to you if you think their advice is worth following or not. Beware if you follow things I am trying, some of my experiments are TOO NEW for me to have tested them long enough to know how they will work long term. I will say there is a reason I'm not using lumber to frame my liner grow beds anymore. Your mileage will vary depending on climate and Pests.

By the way, the comment about ants farming aphids being a problem in media beds........ I've had FAR more trouble with the ants farming the aphids on the lettuce in my raft beds. I applied beneficial nematodes which have seemed to keep the ants out of the media beds but I couldn't keep the sand wet enough (keeping the ground moist for three weeks would have required several hours a day of hand watering ground that I'm not trying to grow crops in and the hoses don't reach easily) around the raft beds after application and so there are still enough ants living in the ground around my raft beds that I'm still struggling with some aphid problems there. Media beds can be flooded to get ants to move out and they can stay wet enough for beneficial nematodes to get established. So far other options (ant killing pesticides) I tried on the ground around the outside of the raft beds haven't kept the ants at bay either. Ants have an easy time simply walking up the side of the raft bed and out onto the rafts (unless you have some really easy want to guarantee there is always a gap between the raft and the side of the bed, air line, etc) I have not figured out how to ensure that perfect gap and also keep all plant parts from ever touching the side of the bed as well.

Yep I imagine that the ants can pretty much make nests on most things that are not completely submerged
Although flooding the beds has not gotten rid of all the aphids for me it did get rid of a lot of them (but the ants seem to have moved along... or drowned, hopefully!).
With rafts though the aphids must be mostly on the plant which should be easier to get rid of than when they are also down in the roots and media on a GB where they seem to call on unending reinforcements?
There is however a place I think is completely wrong for any kind of gravel/clay media and that is towers! I have had one season of 10 towers with 70 strawberry plants and while I did manage to get quite a decent lot of strawberries.. the pests were a major problem and when I ripped out the plants and emptied the media out it was like digging up an ants nest and the roots of the plants were very dark/black (must have taken all up about 4 hours for 10 towers)
I hope my filter pads will work better this time but it certainly can't be more of a PITA and I will never again use media in towers... in beds though not as much of a problem as I can dig around in it and flood it

I know people who have run into terrible problems with root aphids in a raft system too.

And on lettuce, no even if you manage to spray something that kills off the aphids, that doesn't necessarily get them off the plants which might not be a big deal if you are eating the lettuce yourself but it does pose a major problem for selling the lettuce (people hate to get the free protein with their veggies apparently.)

I definitely can't recommend using any gravel sort of media in towers either. I use Zipgrow towers so they have the filter media in them but again, while I use and sell them, I caution that growing vertical is not always the best way, your specific circumstances must warrant the increased cost in labor and pumping to lift water higher to irrigate vertical growing for small plants. Remember that growing vines and tall plants to use the vertical space means that nature will do the lifting of the water for you and all you need to do is train the plants and you don't have to worry about checking the flows to each tower daily to make sure they are not clogged or overflowing etc.

Yes towers can be challenging, I am using them because of very limited space in my greenhouse and because I want to grow strawberries and I find that the fruit doesn't get spoiled as easily when hanging in the air as it does lying on the media in a bed. I have had minor clogging in the tower when using media in them.. but that was after they were there 1 year and quite large plants. I have had no problems with my distribution pipe to them.. I am using 25mm pipe with ball valves above each tower to regulate the flow which has worked great, and the water is filtered somewhat before being fed to the tower piping... It will be interesting to see how it works out this year with the change to filter pads. In hindsight I would say that I may have been better just installing flooded horizontal pipes like I have on the other wall of my greenhouse, they have been very easy to maintain and much less likely to leak or get clogged.... oh well

No offense was meant. I thought the term Newbie was a widely accepted contraction of "person new to a particular activity or group".

Would you prefer some other description for people who are brand new to this forum, that have no AP experience and are only beginning their AP education? I have seen "AP virgin" and while I didn't take offense when I saw it I did not like it so I've never used it myself.

When it comes to AP there are a bunch of people on this forum who have extensive AP experience. While I wouldn't approach them for all the answers of life I would ask for their advice on many AP matters particularly for areas on which my knowledge is weak (plant nutrient deficiencies for example).

Any one who wants to learn about AP is welcome on this forum but when they first join they will be new and most likely not have a clue what they are doing. Ryan is an exception but we pretty much worked out that he wasn't the average Newbie by about his third post. Just because they are new and just because they don't know what they are doing doesn't make them an inferior human being. It just means that their AP education is only just beginning. Just because my AP experience and knowledge is greater doesn't make me a better person it just means my AP education is more extensive and developed.

I would like to point out that when I am posting particularly when I am explaining something to someone and especially when trying to fix a problem or give advice to prevent a problem, unnecessary expense, stress or effort I am volunteering my services.

Pretty soon (hopefully) I'm going to be too busy to contribute much for a while. Right now I have a bit of time but I'm increasingly feeling that some of my efforts on this forum are not worth the hassle and the number of times I have deleted posts or just not written them in the first place is growing. Rereading my posts I don't know how someone could feel that they could judge my intent sufficiently incorrectly to call my attitude arrogant or to come to the conclusion that I want to put people down because of their inexperience. Calling someone arrogant is a pretty mild insult but it is another example of how I feel the tone of the forum seems to have changed. I'm not having as much fun here as I was. When I am busy I've got a range of things I can chose to spend my spare time on and the less fun I have here the less likely I am to contribute. I am not going to spit the dummy in some form of public spectacle like GD and others have done over the years but you may find myself and others just fading away if things don't change for the better.

newbie is about the best one word term there is.
however it has been used as a derogatory term for years in video game circles - (noob).

Maybe Jono is a gamer then?

Huh.... It's what I do as a full time job, helping people that have problems with their AP systems...

So you think because I recommend certain methods, or because I do things a certain way, I don't know any other way? Now who's making generalisations...

Also I don't consider noob to be a derogatory term personally, I call myself that regularly when in new games/fields/hobbies..

well i wasnt picking on you, but tbh if i wanted to know about more in depth aquaculture stuff without doing a uni course, there are better go to guys around here. :hug:


"So in that case you have to say, well it works, he is right, but when it doesnt is he the guy that will fix it for me? if he has never done this or that, how is he supposed to know its not a better way, etc."

^that WAS a generalisation, not a "he hasnt done it, he doesnt know anything" statement, the same would apply to anyone in any field, you may do something your whole life and someone can come along and show you a simple little trick that you never learned or worked out for yourself... it happens all the time.

I've never claimed to be a "go to guy" for in depth aquaculture stuff.. But when it comes to simplifying aquaponics and getting people involved in aquaponics... Come to me...

Sure, but thats kind of my point.
simple isnt always what is best, but its what you are best at pushing.

*hides*