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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 00:40 
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SuperVeg wrote:
the reality of the inherent evil of all forms of socialism,

I think paved roads are a form of socialism, they aren't bad.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 01:01 
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I'd like to have universal healthcare for all citizens, would help several people I know (small business owners whose insurance only allows only three doctor visits per year, won't pay out for procedures, etc.) I suspect it keeps many people from starting businesses, you'd have a lot more entrepreneurs if people didn't have to worry about getting sick and going bankrupt from medical bills.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 05:43 
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So now we have some discussion ;)

Rupe a libertarian (like me) believes in as much freedom and as little government as possible.

A neocon can be described as in American politics is someone presented as a conservative but who actually favors big government, interventionalism, and a hostility to religion in politics and government.

While a socialist is obviously on the far left, a neocon is on the far right. A libertarian is neither left nor right (and not a centrist) disagreeing with all forms of government control.

@werdna
Thats the basic idea. Providing of course the big corporations are not lobbying government or otherwise influencing politics. Which is not capitalism but heading in the direction of fascism. I am also a greenie at heart but I don't believe the standard regulation model is a solution to environmental problems. The more government control the more pollution it seems (china, russia)
Its due to the "tragedy of the commons" where public land is polluted because there is no owner.

keith wrote:
it's impossible to "discuss" or "debate" when the originators of this kind of bunk don't believe in science or facts, just forwarding rubish to try to convince the masses that they know best..

how can you call that an "intellectual" statement?

Can you explain the lack of "belief" in science or facts ?
Or do you mean they may not agree with your "belief" in supposed science or facts ?

Dave Donley wrote:
Not forever but long enough to kill off many many many... species,

What specifically is killing everything? Pollution which we see less of in more capitalist countries and more of in socialist countries where there is much more government control ?
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and to potentially make living hard for our own too.

IF there were disastrous environmental effects yes. Compared to the guaranteed "harder living" from ever increasing govt regulation and environmental taxes.
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"Eventually" may be too late. If externalities like carbon pollution are never put in the system then the theory may kick in late.

That's assuming the current levels of carbon pollution is a big problem
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If corporations are people then they mesh easily with politics, sometimes you have dictatorships, oligarchies, warlords, anarchy, not just nice economic idealism/utopianism but messy political stuff instead.

Corporations are not people. Corporations are run by people and individuals make decisions, not "the company". Unfortunately they are becoming "people". Not due to "capitalism" but govt regulation and by govt courts.
(btw anarchy basically just means no centralized govt, very different to the others you grouped it with)
Rupe wrote:
And frankly from what I read about the guy... he's nowhere near a "libertarian"... but definitely very similar to a neo-con.... and sprouting the modern neo-con war cry... of "those bloody socialist"... who seem to be everywhere.... and under every bed thses days...

What specifically have you read about the guy? Was it something he wrote so what someone wrote about him? I would really like to read what you read about him because I have a lot of trouble with your "very similar to a neocon" statement. Maybe you have read something I haven't so I would like to check it out.

There is a fundamental difference between saying "those bloody socialists" to supporting murderous wars all over the world. He doesn't believe in govt intervention, of any kind. None of the Austrian Economics scholars that are part of the Mises Institute can in any way be labelled neocon and they are extremely critical of the neocons as well.

Stuart Chignell wrote:
I think my view of economics might be slightly different than the majority of other members of the forum.

Which is ?


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 05:55 
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Ronmaggi wrote:
SuperVeg wrote:
the reality of the inherent evil of all forms of socialism,

I think paved roads are a form of socialism, they aren't bad.

But you don't know how much better private roads might be do you?
There would potentially be far less deaths, or less congestion and road rage. Or both.
Competition creates better products.
On top of that you have the taxes stolen from the people to fund the roads. We all know how long govt takes to build things, and how much more money is wasted when govt funds a project.
But we don't get the choice do we?

Dave Donley wrote:
I'd like to have universal healthcare for all citizens, would help several people I know (small business owners whose insurance only allows only three doctor visits per year, won't pay out for procedures, etc.) I suspect it keeps many people from starting businesses, you'd have a lot more entrepreneurs if people didn't have to worry about getting sick and going bankrupt from medical bills.

Isn't food shelter and clothing more important than healthcare?
How long can you go without these things? Most people wouldn't die in a few days without healthcare so why isn't food shelter and clothing free as well?

Universal healthcare sounds good, but how much tax do you want to extract from the people to be able to afford it? Canada has a very comprehensive healthcare system funded by necessary high taxes. Canadian healthcare also has some of the longest waiting lists in the western world and many Canadians travel to the US to PAY for healthcare so they can actually get served in some kind of time frame.
There is a hospital recently started in the US that is 100% private. (no govt funding at all) and they post all their prices on the website. They prices for surgeries are significantly cheaper than the public system (when the govt pays for something the price always goes up) This hospital caters for people that are uninsured, so the poorest in the country are going to a private hospital.

Anything and everything the government funds will always be run inefficiently will always require more money and never reach the standards that private industry would provide.
On top of that you have removed the free choice of the people to have that service or not.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 06:21 
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This link is helpful to compare bad old Canadian health care and others:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Heal ... th_systems


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 07:47 
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Wikipedia wrote:
Criticism
The WHO rankings have been subject to much criticism concerning their methodology, scientificity, and usefulness. Dr Richard G. Fessler called the rankings "misleading" and said that tens of thousands of foreigners travel to the United States every year for care. In addition, he claims that the United States leads the world in survival rates for 13 of the 16 most common types of cancer. He also noted that the financial fairness measure was automatically designed to "make countries that rely on free market incentives look inferior".[3] Dr Philip Musgrove wrote that the rankings are meaningless because they oversimplify: "numbers confer a spurious precision".

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Journalist John Stossel notes that the use of life expectancy figures is misleading and the life expectancy in the United States is held down by homicides, accidents, poor diet, and lack of exercise. When controlled for these facts, Stossel claims that American life expectancy is actually one of the highest in the world.[5] A publication by the right-wing Pacific Research Institute in 2006 claims to have found that Americans outlive people in every other Western country, when controlled for homicides and car accidents.[6] Stossel also criticizes the ranking for favoring socialized healthcare, noting that "a country with high-quality care overall but 'unequal distribution' would rank below a country with lower quality care but equal distribution."

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Glen Whitman claims that "it looks an awful lot like someone cherry-picked the results to make the U.S.'s relative performance look worse than it is." He also notes that the rankings favor countries where individuals or families spend little of their income directly on health care.


From the same wiki article. Just looking for evidence of one side of an argument doesn't help anyone.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 08:12 
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I don't trust man
Rich greedy man even less
Faceless rich greedy man in Corporations even less still.
...you can vote out governments and profit at all costs isnt their only motivation.

If we are going to be good capitalist libertarians lets be fair and factor in some externalities.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-03-07/j ... ts/3873868

Lets see how the Ponzi scheme stacks up when the price of petrol includes the economic and environmental cost of having the US army invade/or prop up dictators in oil rich countries to maintain supply.
Lets factor in the true environmental damage of mining and farming.
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The worst performer is agriculture, which is estimated to cause more than twice as much damage to the environment as it generates in profit.


Lets see if that doesn't result in a quantum shift in the way the world really works.

The current model is an unsustainable delusional fantasy based on the massive undervaluing of finite resources and the environmental impacts associated with production and constant growth.
All the costs are passed onto future generations while Capitalist Libertarians reap the ill gotten profits from their rape and pillage and whinge about having to pay a pathetically low level of tax.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 08:18 
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Always swings back to Libertarian for you SV... :)

But you never responded to my last response on the subject, it's all very well to keep voicing ideas and theories, but this is the only real example there is to go on the idea and it was shown to NOT do good at all in so many different areas.

I'm just going to copy and paste my post from before.

Quote:
It's good this discussion has taken place because it's made me research more and get a better understanding of things, and from a quick search for "Examples of Libertarian society" I was struggling to come up with anything very positive. The most recent example of anything close to libertarian ideas actually in place and working was in Chile

The following quotes are from here : http://www.spectacle.org/0403/loo.html

Quote:
It is fair to examine the econometric analysis and historical record of the free-market capitalist ideas that would be in effect in a libertarian society. As the noted libertarian anarcho- capitalist David Friedman writes in his The Machinery of Freedom, "Some anarcho-capitalists do not [defend the historical record of capitalist societies]. They concede the justice of many of the usual attacks on 'capitalism,' but argue that everything would be different if we could get rid of government. That is a cop-out. Human beings and human societies are far too complicated for us to have confidence in a priori predictions about how institutions that have never been tried would work."(25) That is a fair statement, and so we will examine the econometrics of what would happen if the United States implemented libertarian economic policies.

If looking for real-world historical scenarios, Chile is a prime example of libertarian ideas at work. Though Chile did not get rid of restrictions on free markets, it is the closest example of such a state in modern history, and, by the standards of the David Friedman quote above, is certainly subject to examination. For this reason, I will be giving examples from Chilean history when discussing the impact of policies such as the repeal of the minimum wage. The economy of Chile from 1973 to 1990 was one in which a nearly unrestrained free market was turned loose with the full support of the government. The "Chicago Boys," a group of Chilean economists who received graduate training in the 1950s and 1960s at the University of Chicago under free- market advocates such as Milton Friedman and Arnold Harberger, were put in charge of reshaping the country's economic policies. Milton Friedman, Harberger, and Friedrich von Hayek all visited Santiago- Milton Friedman would even give a master lecture on television(26) as well as a one-hour course in economics to the dictator Auguste Pinochet(27). Joseph Collins, citing Shirley Christian, states "At least fifteen Chicago Boys would occupy top policy-making positions in the Pinochet military government."(28) Despite the authoritarian social policies of Auguste Pinochet, he gave free rein to the Chicago Boys to implement their economic ideas- possibly because he wanted to be remembered for "a historic act of national renewal, and he decided these bold technocrats held the key to a new, prosperous future that would forever distinguish his rule. In return, Pinochet was willing to guarantee protection from all political pressure."(29). This protection from political pressure would be necessary, as the economic measures proved unpopular enough that military intervention was needed to suppress the civil unrest the measures spawned(30). The Chicago Boys, working from libertarian economic ideals, promptly implemented policies which rolled back work laws, privatized health care, drastically reduced subsidized housing, and allowed wages to plunge. When we examine this historical example, we will find that the Chicago Boys' policies dramatically reduced the economic well- being and freedom of the poor.


And what happened?

Quote:
During Pinochet's regime in Chile, the lack of an hourly minimum wage(54) led to expectations that employees work long hours of unpaid overtime. When an employee complains about unpaid overtime, he could simply be fired(55) since high unemployment ensures that there will be no shortage of volunteers to take his place. This effective degrading of the hourly minimum wage was an effect of the free market reaching a balance between employment and wages in the absence of regulation; a regular practice of Chile's construction projects was the weekly queuing up of workers to underbid each other for the week's work(56). Even when the Chilean economy recovered, wages remained low as profits simply went into the pockets of employers(57). Indeed, the rapid growth years of 1986-1989 resulted in no increases in real wages(58), despite a study that estimated that the minimum wage could be increased by 50 percent without increasing unemployment significantly(59). Not surprisingly, the poor remained poor, and the percentage of families in poverty increased. Real wages in 1989 were only 90.8% of what they had been in 1970(60). The real minimum wage dropped 40% from 1981 to 1988(61). As Lois Oppenheim writes, "Does freedom of choice really exist when only a small group has the resources to exercise choice?"(62). The utter lack of ability to exercise a choice is not functionally better than not having that choice at all- and the libertarian policy, rather than increasing the freedom of the poor, drastically reduced it. The historical record of Chile shows that the poor became further impoverished, impeding their upward mobility and reducing their liberty, thereby making the libertarian argument based on moral grounds a failure.

Public/Subsidized Housing

The repeal of funding for public housing would also have adverse effects on the poor. Many low-wage employees can only find affordable housing via public housing(63) Though free- market advocates expect that private contractors could do more to provide decent inexpensive housing than the government, Chile provides an alarming counterexample. From 1974 until the end of Pinochet's reign, the private sector not only failed to shrink the housing deficit which existed in 1974, it actually fell behind as population grew(64). The houses of the poblaciones, or shantytowns, often contained three to five families. As Collins writes, "The percentage of Chileans without adequate housing increased from 27 percent in 1972 to 40 percent in 1988, even though according to neo-liberal social dogma the private construction industry combined with supplemental vouchers for low-income households would solve the housing problem."(65). Imagine how much worse the problem would be if the limited government support of the vouchers did not exist.


Quote:
So what happened in Chile as regulations and wage laws were repealed or loosened? Unemployment, which averaged around 6 percent in the 1960s(67) and dropped to around 5 percent in 1973 before Pinochet took over, averaged 20 percent from 1974 to 1987, peaked at 35 percent in 1982, and even when official unemployment numbers dropped, it was because working one day a week was enough to be considered not unemployed(68). It also spawned other problems for the now unemployed or underemployed, such as alcoholism and depression(69).


Quote:
A common libertarian objection to charges that the repeal of welfare would hurt the poor is that the rich will donate more money to private charities, which in turn would be more efficient than the government. The combination of private charity, churches, communities, and family would be able to "bridge the gap" for those who do not earn enough to support themselves. Clearly, this did not happen in Chile as governmental spending on the poor dropped even as the rich got richer. Malnourishment increased(72), and the number of families which could not afford a basic "basket" of necessary goods doubled in the twenty years leading up to 1989. By that point, fewer than half the families in Santiago could afford that basic basket(73).


Quote:
During the Pinochet regime, Chile sharply reduced state contributions to health services, greatly increased privatization in health care, and removed regulations. This led to less preventive care which in turn led to a greater increase in health emergencies, deterioration in the quality of hospital equipment, hospital overcrowding(81), and the danger of medical quackery(82).


Quote:
When Chile largely privatized its Social Security, Chileans often operated from misinformation or outright lack of information(86). Inflation further degraded the benefits, and by 1987, Chilean labor economist Jaime Ruiz-Tagle estimated that only 22 percent of Chilean workers made a salary that might allow them to retire with more than minimum benefits(87).


I found examples listed of societies having similar traits as libertarian ideals, such as some stages of early Ireland and Iceland, or early US frontier situations, but the only other example coming anything close to it in more modern terms is the Amish, though I don't know that I should use the term modern necessarily.

So from what I can gather there have been a few examples of some societies adopting some principles a LONG time ago, but most were short lived and it would appear that it doesn't adapt well to modern society. :dontknow:


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 08:58 
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Im looking forward to responding to Snag's and EB's posts soon. Its my sons 1st birthday today :)
EB I have been slowly constructing a response to that very question over the last few months, I never get around to finishing it. I will finally now you have brought it out for the third time :) Its a common question actually.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 10:13 
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SuperVeg wrote:
There is a hospital recently started in the US that is 100% private. (no govt funding at all) and they post all their prices on the website. They prices for surgeries are significantly cheaper than the public system (when the govt pays for something the price always goes up) This hospital caters for people that are uninsured, so the poorest in the country are going to a private hospital.

Anything and everything the government funds will always be run inefficiently will always require more money and never reach the standards that private industry would provide.
On top of that you have removed the free choice of the people to have that service or not.

But our health care is not run by the government. It is run by insurance companies. The price gouging at hospitals is a reflection on that. A hospital submits a bill to an insurance company, the insurance company says that they are only going to pay a percentage of it. The hospital learns real fast that if they want to get what they need from the insurance company, jack up the price. Now the price is set high. If someone comes in off the street without insurance, they pay the inflated price. Even with insurance it costs a bit to go to the hospital. They are so used to nickel and dimeing the insurance companies, they just do it to everyone. I think that the hospital you are referring to is cool, but it is not the government they are avoiding, it is the stockholder ran insurance companies. Now I'm not saying that stock holders are a bad thing, but sometimes they can make stupid demands. I remember a previous CEO of the company I work for had mentioned that during a shareholder meeting one of the larger shareholders asked why we don't run our business more like Circut City. Thank god we didn't because Circut City went out of business, and we are still here. I am also thankful that our founder bought up enough stock while it was priced low to seize back control and put our company back on track! What I am saying is that the demands put on insurance companies by stockholders in the name of profit only is inappropriate. This is not a government issue at all. I wish that we had healthcare like Australia and most of Europe. Every one acts like the government can't do anything right, but the mail service is good, Medicare's satisfaction rating is staggeringly higher than insurance companies ratings, and I have lived on a private road before, it sucked.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 10:44 
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You can't say that what was originally posted was an attempt to initiate intelligent debate, it is used as a propaganda piece posted all over the internet and it has a few aims but none of them are for intelligent debate. It's about "name calling", and inciting fear and hatred in an attempt to push a political agenda.

What I posted previously and above was not really a question. The libertarian ideas you are suggesting are largely untested, so suggesting they work and they will provide certain outcomes requires is not based in fact, it's theory. Now there is one example of these ideas being put to the test in Chile and it failed in pretty much all areas from the evidence I've seen.

Quote:
What specifically is killing everything? Pollution which we see less of in more capitalist countries and more of in socialist countries where there is much more government control ?


Yes, more pollution happens in China, why is that? You say because it's a socialist country with more government controls? No way, it's less environmental controls that are causing the pollution, that is why most western products are produced in these countries, cheap labour and lax environmental controls. This is correlation not causation.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 10:59 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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I used to be very socialist in my views but being self employed and running a number of businesses cured me of that. However I find many of the far right ideas on how economies do or can/should run to be fantasy. Much like communism unregulated free markets with no or minimal government interference sounds good for a whole bunch of reasons but I believe would fail for the same reasons that communism failed. Any system where human nature is allowed to dominate is going to be bad for the majority of the population.

Also governments are actually good at doing some things. Or at least better than private enterprise. Just because projects are privately run does not mean that they will be better run.

Roads and rail are an excellent example. The value of these forms of infrastructure is in the network that they create and being a network it is almost impossible for the builder of them to capture the economic benefit of them. Governments can because they work at such a larger scale. It amazes me that so much talk about letting the market take care of things by itself comes from america when there is so much history of how government involvement helped the US to become the super power it is (was?). The rail network was what stimulated the economic development of the US to without the Government paying for the building of the rail network the states wouldn't be what it is today. Rather than america being an example of what capitalism can acheive america is actually an example of what the public and private sector can do when they work well together.

Australia also has many examples and we would not have the nation we have today without the governments we have had in the past. The Kalgoolie pipe, the snowy mountains hydro scheme, almost all the ports.... were all government projects because private industry was not up to the task without government backing.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 11:02 
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
Seriously, this cant be healthy.
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One of the interesting contradictions of communist countries was the massive environmental pollution side by side untouched wilderness.

With the fall of communism in eastern Europe people were simultaneously horrified by the degradation but then amazed by the extant populations of species that were extinct in the west or so threatened as to be nearly so.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 14:43 
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+1 about the rail roads. I always find it funny how the very corporations that rally for free market capitalism are the first to accept a bailout. Businesses that would have had nothing without the New Deal have been trying to overturn it ever since. All of the anti-socialism propaganda had nothing to do with foreign nations destroying the western democracies but with keeping businesses in control of the population. We can thank Edward Bernays for that. I participate in elections, but the only real vote that maters is how you spend your money. I buy organic food because I believe that that is how food should be. I do not shop at wal mart because I feel that it is a poverty factory. Last time I went into one the noxious fumes from all of the petroleum produced junk made me sick. I do not worry too much about where something is made, but I do care how it is made. I firmly believe that pure socialism will fail, just as surely as pure free market capitalism will. Just as sure as growing only Burbank russet potatoes will cause a massive collapse in food supplies. (maybee French fries aren't all supposed to look the same) Fiberglass cloth has no rigidity, and polyester resin is brittle, together they make a rigid, tough material. An amalgamation of capitalism and socialism is what create strong societies. It is a delicate balance. Without government subsidies, no one in America would grow corn. There is no profit in it by itself. Because of government subsidies, farmers in Mexico can't compete with American corn. They are out of business. So their options are to grow a different cash crop like marijuana, or hop on a bus set for America and find work here. There are plenty of shady corporations that love having a labor pool that will work for peanuts, and if they start talking union, a quick call to immigration takes care of the problem. If we stop subsidizing corn, the swollen population that has gotten as large as it has because of the caloric increase would suffer from famine. Pandoras box has been opened, and there is no closing it. Thankfully sites like this one are empowering individuals to sustain their families responsibly.


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PostPosted: Jul 1st, '12, 20:05 
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Dunno what you guys get out of these discussions ....


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