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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '09, 09:32 
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Trees play a huge roll in keeping temperatures down, just compare the differences in cities and towns with trees and without. Trees cool the area around them by providing shade, and just as important is the evaporative cooling effect they cause. Some trees lose as much as 200 gallons of water per day to evaporation. Which cool the imediate area and later help create clouds, (more shade and reflecting of solar rays and so on.)


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PostPosted: Apr 18th, '09, 14:42 
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I heard that Manhattan, New York City, only stays healthy because of the trees in Central Park. Is like a vital biological filter for the city and oxygen supply.


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PostPosted: Apr 19th, '09, 13:06 
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Cyara wrote:
I heard that Manhattan, New York City, only stays healthy because of the trees in Central Park. Is like a vital biological filter for the city and oxygen supply.


Hmmm...maybe....I have not run numbers, but would think that it is far, far too small to deal with any significant portion of the local human output. Good for the soul, though, I understand. Let's see....8mil people & 800+ acres is about 2 square feet per person.....not enough. Cities...*shudder*

On the subject of the avocado trees influencing the local rain...probably not, either way. We are in a Mediterranean climate here and simply get no rain in summer and the rain in winter comes from storms blowing in rather than the locally generated rain more typical of rain forests (where transpiration can raise moisture levels from nearly raining to raining and give you daily showers).


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PostPosted: Apr 19th, '09, 14:20 
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These articles might interest you HP.

I know it sounds annecdotal to say trees bring rain.... they suck up so much so why not remove them if drought conditions prevail? It is a very short-sighted view in a much more complex equation.

My interest in planting trees started with comments by Bill Mollison that we can do without universities but we cannot do without forests. A strong and strange view to make his point. But I have come to believe his point that trees are essential to eco-balance - in fact vital. We need forests.... and even if it is a food forest on a homestead it is important....

Quote:
Fewer trees, less rain: study uncovers deforestation equation
By Richard Macey
March 4, 2005

Australian scientists say they have found proof that cutting down forests reduces rainfall.

The finding, independent of previous anecdotal evidence and computer modelling, uses physics and chemistry to show how the climate changes when forests are lost.........
Rest of the article here.........http://www.smh.com.au/news/Environment/ ... 11592.html

This was also of interest to me....
Quote:
TREES BRING RAIN in DESERTS
October 02, 2006 by
Pratanu Banerjee

Massachusetts Institute of Technology scientists have found that trees in a dense forest of Oman have an unusual way to water themselves by extracting moisture from low-lying clouds. Professor Elfatih A.B. Eltahir of civil and environmental engineering have found that
the trees have preserved an ecological niche in an area characterized mostly by desert. The plants exploit a wispy thin source of water that occurs seasonally. The forest could be driven to extinction if camel continue to graze frequently. As the forest disappears, the trees will lose the ability to pull water from the mist and recharge underground reservoirs.

All but the most arid desert lands support life that is frequently abundant and well adapted to the scarcity of water and the daytime heat.
Desert plants have evolved ways of conserving and efficiently using the water available to them. Some flowering desert plants are ephemeral; they live for a few days at most. Their seeds lie dormant in the soil, sometimes for years, until a soaking rain enables them to germinate and quickly bloom. Woody desert plants either have long root systems that reach deep water sources or have spreading shallow roots that are able to take up surface moisture quickly from heavy dews and occasional rains. Desert plants usually have small leaves. This conserves water by reducing surface area from which transpiration can take place. Other plants drop their leaves during the dry period. The process of photosynthesis—by which sunlight is converted to energy and usually conducted primarily in leaves—is taken over in the desert by the stems. A number of desert plants are succulents, storing water in leaves, stems, and roots. Thorns, which are modified leaves, serve to guard the water from animal invaders. These plants may take in and store carbon dioxide only at night; during the day their stomata, or pores, are closed to prevent evaporation. Desert plants growing on saline soils may concentrate salt in their sap and then secrete the salt through their leaves.
Burning and overgrazing of semiarid lands on the periphery of deserts can irreversibly damage the plants that concentrate moisture and hold the soil together, thus enabling deserts to encroach on arable land. This encroachment, a serious world problem, is called desertification. A 1984 report of a desertification study made for the United Nations stated that 35 percent of the earth’s land surface was at least threatened by such processes.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT), one of the world’s leading research universities, in Cambridge, Massachusetts. In 1865 the school was opened in Boston by geologist William Barton Rogers, who became its first president.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... tml?cat=62

You may get your rain blown in perhaps but it took trees to ensure that there was rain to blow in. As to Manhattan.... perhaps you are right.... I don't know.....that was merely something of interest I heard. I do believe Central Park has a more valuable role than generally estimated... but merely my opinion..... simply because every forest is important. :flower:


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PostPosted: Apr 21st, '09, 02:27 
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This forum is about the future of our food- new technology, sustainability of current crop production methods, new laws, new consumer trends, impacts to food production and supply, such as population growth, droughts, costs, desertification and of course the big one- global warming.
There is a lot of talk about green house gases and that it can be reversable. Personally, I think we have already hit the tipping point on that scale as ice caps are melting faster than the models show that they should. The other thing is psychology- who's responsible to make the changes and what are you going to give up? (Note that I didn't say willing to give up- it won't be a choice.)

First the psychology delemma- me first, everyone else second.
The Green Issue- Why Isn't the Brain Green?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magaz ... t.html?hpw

One alternative to living the way we do now, similar to permaculture but on a community scale.
The Green Issue- The End Is Near! (Yay!)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magaz ... t.html?hpw

This is the third article of this series so I thought I would include it- after all, swapping electric car batteries out for long trips makes electric cars actually a viable option for all personal transportation.
The Green Issue- Batteries Not Included
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magaz ... t.html?hpw


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PostPosted: Apr 22nd, '09, 04:01 
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Here's another oppinion piece about HR 875
http://www.politicususa.com/en/node/6659
Author seems to be headed towards the idea that agribusiness/monsanto are trying to astroturf the issue.


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PostPosted: Apr 23rd, '09, 17:47 
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Thx for the great articles and comments everyone. Very informative!


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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '09, 09:55 
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Having read all your erudite articles this one caught my eye. We already know how dire we hear things are as news meanders down the pipeline. This guy started the earth policy institute and puts a sharp crisp border on the coming food crisis and the need to act. Here's a highlight if you don't have time to read the whole article:

"Similar in scale and urgency to the us mobilization for WWII, plan B has 4 components(plan A is business as usual); a massive effort to cut carbon emissions by 80% from their 2006 levels by 2020; the stabilization of the world's population at 8 billion by 2040, the eradication of poverty, and the restoration of forests, soils, and aquifers."

He also states the trends in place now as to water shortages, loss of soil, and rising temps must be reversed. Doesn't ask much, does he?

I can't see one objective being met before civilization has an unfortunate train wreck. Might've already started if the swine flu now in mexico turns out to be the same spanish flu that did so much damage in 1918. And my next birthday is 'so' close. :-)

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=civ ... s&offset=5


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PostPosted: Apr 24th, '09, 12:10 
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This is something new, even to me.

Rise in dust storms spurs environmental fears
Increase in dirt affects ecosystems in Western states
The dust storms are a harbinger of a broader phenomenon, researchers say, as global warming translates into less precipitation and a population boom intensifies the activities that are disturbing the dust in the first place.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30360872/


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PostPosted: Apr 25th, '09, 05:07 
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The link didn't work for me angie. But after living at lake tahoe for 13 years I can appreciate where the article was going. Main reason I left the area.

The trees in the forests experienced several years of drought, which made them susceptible to a nasty little bark beetle. Somewhere around 70% of timber is standing (and fallen) brittle dry deadwood that's ripe for a forest fire. Couple of close calls was enough for me. That and being shaken by a 6.0 earthquake only 5 miles from it's epicenter while living in Carson Valley, Nv.

The articles on the approaching water shortages there convinced me that it'd be a good time to grow lot's of lettuce this summer. As it sounds like it will be in short supply in the near future. What the heck, I'll grow alot anyway, see if I can become a local supplier here. :-)


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PostPosted: Apr 25th, '09, 13:11 
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Sorry about the link- I clicked on it and it popped up that the article was expired. I tried to locate the article elsewhere but there was only a leader and a link back to the same expired location.
In the article, they layed partial blame on off-roaders. That may cause a little dust, okay some maybe more than a little but strong winds in combination with little ground cover to hold the dirt down causes more of a problem.

As far as bark beetles, all across California, we're having that problem- the trees are stressed from lack of water, pollution and get invaded by pests. When we get major fires now, they use satilite images to show the smoke plumbs.


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PostPosted: Apr 25th, '09, 14:15 
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Angie wrote:
ice caps are melting faster than the models show that they should.

And antarctic ice is growing faster than models predict! Perhaps we should not base our judgment on models as they have never been proven to be correct (and IMO never will be)


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PostPosted: Apr 25th, '09, 16:02 
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novaris wrote:
Angie wrote:
ice caps are melting faster than the models show that they should.

And antarctic ice is growing faster than models predict! Perhaps we should not base our judgment on models as they have never been proven to be correct (and IMO never will be)


Yes. It is interesting to note that there is little ever spoken in the news today about the Global Cooling debate. Seems to be whichever lobbyists hold sway at the time....

Wasn't going to get into this debate... but may as well add my 2c

Global warming is not the new idea so loudly purported to be...

http://www.businessandmedia.org/special ... andice.asp

BMI found:

Quote:
“Global Cooling” Was Just as Realistic: Several publications warned in the 1970s that global cooling posed a major threat to the food supply. Now, remarkably, global warming is also considered a threat to the very same food supply.

Glaciers Are Growing or Shrinking: The media continue to point to glaciers as a sign of climate change, but they have used them as examples of both cooling and warming.

Global Warming History Ignored: The media treat global warming like it’s a new idea. In fact, British amateur meteorologist G. S. Callendar argued that mankind was responsible for heating up the planet with carbon dioxide emissions – in 1938. That was decades before scientists and journalists alerted the public about the threat of a new ice age.

New York Times the Worst: Longtime readers of the Times could easily recall the paper claiming “A Major Cooling Widely Considered to Be Inevitable,” along with its strong support of current global warming predictions. Older readers might well recall two other claims of a climate shift back to the 1800s – one an ice age and the other warming again. The Times has warned of four separate climate changes since 1895.


Newsweek’s April 1975 story was the trend toward global cooling. Temperatures had been falling since about 1940 and then around 1979 they reversed direction and resumed the general rise that had begun in the 1880s, bringing us today back to around 1940 levels......http://denisdutton.com/newsweek_coolingworld.pdf

My question is always WHO ALL are gaining out of this Global Warming scare... I have some personal answers already and don't buy into this theory.... for it is merely a theory.... like evolution... a theory.... put out as science. The pattern is so familiar.

Just being alive produces CO2. Too many of us alive? .... Man and animal included?.... Then the pragmatic view must be to reduce living creatures.... abort man before he is born because it is called murder after he is born... and control farmer's who have these mindless methane producing creatures... cows.... do everything opposite to how nature does it and expect to increasingly prosper.......and... and.... and..........

Insanity dressed as science.


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PostPosted: Apr 25th, '09, 17:09 
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Cyara wrote:
My question is always WHO ALL are gaining out of this Global Warming scare...

Always wise to look for who benefits....not that everyhting is a conspiracy, but those who benefit will push to keep things to their benefit...

Cyara wrote:
I have some personal answers already and don't buy into this theory.... for it is merely a theory.... like evolution... a theory.... put out as science. The pattern is so familiar.

If one finds person A with a bullet in them, ballistic tests show came from a gun with fingerprints from person B, one could form a theory that person B shot person A. One could also theorize the entire crime scene was all created a moment ago by an omniscient prankster, complete with evidence. Either theory is valid, but the second one will not lead to arresting B as a killer.
Same with evolution vs "alternatives", and I can not believe that God would deceive us with planted, consistent, and logical evidence of evolution.

Cyara wrote:
Just being alive produces CO2. Too many of us alive? .... Man and animal included?.... Then the pragmatic view must be to reduce living creatures.... abort man before he is born because it is called murder after he is born... and control farmer's who have these mindless methane producing creatures... cows.... do everything opposite to how nature does it and expect to increasingly prosper.......and... and.... and..........

Insanity dressed as science.

The CO2 a creature produces is part of a natural cycle and will go back into the food plants it needs, but digging up fossil carbon and burning it is not natural. Even without warming we are poisoning (with CO2) and overfishing our oceans, both of which are only possible with fossil fuel. Fossil fuel created civilization, everything from roads to airlines to computers, and will allow us to take the next step to non-fossil fuel....or not. We have been given a choice. And please note that I'm not saying gov't mandated programs will be wise or effective. But we, individually and collectively, should choose our actions based on good information and it does not help when sowers of doubt or exaggerators try to prevent honest debate.

Raising creatures for us to eat is ok (especially if we treat them as fellow creatures God has given us to care for), but using antibiotics to allow us to crowd them together in terrible conditions and produce resistant bacteria that infect us, that we are helpless to treat is, even ignoring the moral dimension .....unwise. I could go on...


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PostPosted: Apr 25th, '09, 19:08 
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Quote:
Same with evolution vs "alternatives", and I can not believe that God would deceive us with planted, consistent, and logical evidence of evolution.
We will have to agree to disagree here HP. Since evolution took hold as "science" God has progressively been removed as Creator of His Creation. Evolution precludes Intelligent design. The only planted evidence seems to have been man-made. Take the Piltdown man...Eoanthropus dawsoni.....proven later to be skillfully disguised fragments of a human cranium about 600 years old, the jaw and teeth of an orangutan, and the tooth most probably of a chimpanzee. The "evidence" of the Nebraska Man was all built on the finding of a tooth in Nebraska and hailed as another piece to the puzzle... it was later found to be the tooth of a pig! I have yet to hear of any convincing evidence for evolution. Intelligent Design makes more sense all the way. Can't have both. So agree to disagree on that point.....

Quote:
The CO2 a creature produces is part of a natural cycle and will go back into the food plants it needs, but digging up fossil carbon and burning it is not natural. Even without warming we are poisoning (with CO2) and overfishing our oceans, both of which are only possible with fossil fuel.
..

Exactly. The insanity comes in when lobbyist agendas take what is sane.... deal with pollution... and turn it into the ridiculous....

Cattle cause most Global warming... huh?
http://www.financialexpress.com/news/%9 ... 92/185362/
http://allafrica.com/stories/200902090821.html

The more we mess with it the sillier it gets. Especially if there is not such thing a the "Threat" of Global Warming but only a cyclical phenomenon of Climate Change... Warming and Cooling... a theory that seems to have a lot more evidence.


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