Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

So who pays for the costs? You can't get 10 cents worth of plastic out of a bottle, so it is a negative return for someone. It sounds like a subsidy to me, and everyone pays for subsides. Is coke supposed to eat the cost? Who stores all this plastic, are they being paid, or do they just have to eat that cost also. Why not push to have all plastic bottles outlawed.

The consumer who decides not to return the bottle!

Hey Helo... This won't effect you at all....... Stop worrying..... People have explained how it works quite a few times already in the thread, I'm not going to repeat it again...

So your saying that there should be a law for every little aspect of every little thing people or companies do? that there should be no moral duty from anyone? as long as the law says its ok it is and if the law says its not ok, then it must be horribly bad and avoided at all costs?
Coke are not following the law though, they are using thier money to get laws made or in this case, revoked.

What do you say to the fact that coke could buy our drinking water a few years ago, at a time when it looked like we may get close to running out of clean drinking water, for a ridiculously small amount (i cant remember how much, but about the equivelant of 1c per kilolitre).
Do company profits really not come before the lives of people and other animals? It sounds like they do, because thats what the law - or lack there of - basically says.

the person who buys the product pays.
The recycling centre who processes the bottles stores the bottles.
coke doesnt eat anything, if anything coke can now employ people to pick up bottles and make a profit if they are so desperate.
why would there be a subsidy? can you explain your reasoning behind this?

The government doesnt subsidise me or the car rental place when i rent a car, why would they subsidise for plastic bottles?
infact, if you want to think of it this way, for every bottle that ISNT recycled, your precious coke get to send 10c back to america, so i dont know why you would have a problem with such a thing.

No I did not say that. Stop making crap up. But you can't fault a company or an individual for operating within the laws. I am against most laws, and almost all taxes.

Sounds like your government is screwing yall not coke. Then again your government is to blame for allowing coke to buy a ruling. Seems like you believe your government is not to blame for anything. Maybe yall should stand up and do something about it. Blaming coke is like getting a speeding ticket for going the correct speed. it is stupid to blame the business. Any business man is going to try to make the most they can, at least a successful one.

Doesn't seem to smart to pick a place where you can't get drinking water. My well flows just fine, and we have coke here also. Try taking care of yourself instead of relying on government.

I said subsidize because the 10 cents is worth more than the plastic. So when a person picks up this piece of plastic and brings it in they are getting more money than it is worth. This money is changing hands lots of times, and the cost to do this is eaten by someone. I just don't believe the 10 cents can cover the cost of all this. The person buys a coke and pays 10 cents extra for the bottle. Now coke is in possession of the 10 cents. Another person picks up this bottle and brings it to a recycling center and gets 10 cents. Now the recycling plant can't get 10 cents for this plastic. So coke has the 10 cents who gets it to the recycling center? And how much government cost does it take to make sure all this happens? You act like everyone is going to do this for free. It takes man hours to make all this happen.

It is late here and I am tired. Going to bed.

And you think that corporations are never to blame for everything and that only the government is to blame.. Government is corrupt, they have sold out to corporations, but that isn't the corporations fault as well....??

Man these conversations just go round and round in circles...



And that's why businesses need regulations controlling aspects of how they run, otherwise they run out of control only interested in profit at any cost, including the detriment of the environment.

And once again..

we dont believe our government does anything right any more than a rightwing mercenary in america beleives thier government does everything right.
However, when a government does try to do something right and someone stops them, they deserve the blame (i know its not just cokes fault, whichever judge that didnt tell them simply to get f*cked is also to blame) However there is no denying that what they did is wrong, morally.

Would you support the dumping of nuclear waste in an area just because it hasnt been ruled illegal yet?

Sure there is a cost, but a minimal cost. This cost will no doubt be pased on by the government - more likely the transfer stations will simply put thier "tip fees" up.
If it is up to the government to pay, then local councils that have paid cleanup crews will likely be able to lay one or 2 people off and therefore actually make money from this scheme, negating any cost.

An good example i think is credit cards, there is a cost involved there, there are costs for everyone who actually do the work, but they have not been disallowed.

Some things simply have to be chalked up to "the cost of doing business" and the fact that huge corporations are spearheading this "maximum profits, minimum cost/service" trend does not change this fact, even though they have enough money and brainwashing power to try.

Hi again helom



No you have not been robbed, you have been taxed like all others that earn a taxable income.
I think ost of us are anoyed about suporting or taking care of people that dosen't wan't to work, or contribute as a matter of free choise. In our system(Norway) you will not recive much, if any at all if that would be the case.
Only if you are willing to cheat the wealfare system (like undermine it) is it possible to recive support around here,that would be breaking the law and also considerd a generall lack off ethics/moral.

Reciving dissability money is a legal right here (Norway) that would not be cheating or stealing, it's not something you have to earn, or deserve. It's a right by law and hardly anyone in our political system (from the far left to the far right wing)
offcourse there is large dissagrements about how much you should recive and also some disputes on how to qualify to financal support.
Same goes with all differente types of governmental financed services, it's not something you get because you deseve or wan't it as a matter of your will, it's based upon your defined legal status in acordense with your factuall abbilieties to support your selfe.
Hardly anyone fine unemployment support nor dissabeled support atractive as a way of living, unless you have a substantial additional xtra income source from a private innsurance/pennsion fund that you would have bought/paid for your selfe. And iff you do have a "large" private incomme source you are not reciving public support (or it would be reduced) even if you would technically have qualifyed based on for instance health reasons (like being dissabeled) again it's deepended on your defined legal status and abbilieties to support you selfe not your want's or your privat wievs of fairenes.

The system(s) are based upon people being loyal towards the laws, regardless of privat opinions and people paying their tax to finance all public services.
Take for instance a police, nurse, theacher, judge, fireman, dissabeled, unemployd or a serviceman for that matter, they have to be payed a reasonable sallary by someone, to be able to be function/live in any regulated society. All of this could oviously be organized in privat companys but still their services would have to be payed for some how, and often so that would be financed thru different types of taxes.
I take it the highway patrol man (police) you refered to in a earlyer post should recive a paycheck from someone and not be depending on catching someone throwing a bottle out the window, that he could "rob" or fine $500,- so he can support his financial needs ? or maybe this patrolmans needs are bigger because he's got a dissabled wife to support at home, so he decides to charge you $1000,-.



This statement speaks for it selfe IMO on moral and etichs.
You are not supporting a spesific class of people, you live in a system that are depended upon those that have a income, pay a part of that in taxes. And you are amongst the lucky/fortunate enoughf to have a taxable inncome.
Also you are on the reciving end driving on public roads, kids in public school a wife on dissabeled sallary etc.
Howm/how do you want to finnance or pay what you recive?
You want dose that dosen't have any income unemployed/dissabeled to pay what you benefit from ?
Oh I forgot you wan't to abuse the system. Not werry honorable (etical/moral) goales it seems, you wan't to quit working and paying tax and being a reciver of public support



Dosen't sound like that at all to me, you are on the reciving end of public services and you are in favour of police giving tickets to pople littering your wife recive benefits kids atend public school......................



Yes you do have control of the contributing part. You got a job.
Tax is not your money it's financing what you and your family recives in benefits so you allready get it back.



I'm trully sorry about that (wife disabled), I'm in suport of public healthcare in general
Is there a surtain type or class of people that shouldn't recive suport or heathcare when disable or sick ?
Only veterans? How about those born disabled ? Would your "class" be the deciding factor or your factual handicap(s) ?



Wow so you are reciving benefits from the governent whilst being able to earn your own money?
I take it those money are just printed out for you ? They are not a part of the overall taxes collected by the US of A.
By the way if you are not in favour of the millitary do you still have to pay taxes to finance it over there ?
I mean if you are civillian educated hellicopter mech, working offshore (like you) would you still have to pay tax on your incomme to the governement ? And contribute to dose that got wounded in a war you didn't support in the first place, because those that did serve deseves it by other peoples standards.



That country is the USA I take it ? not Texas
You are often confusing I thaught you where against the USA ?
It's all Texas is'nt it ?



That would be a federal check (USA) and not a Texas check I take it ?

Enjoy you coke

cheers

Clearly you don't understand that this limited liability and "personhood" is a creation of the government.
I advocate a system that is based on individual action, regardless of the structure. Individuals act not corporations. It is the laws set by government that allows this hiding behind structures.


I'm not saying a bottle refund type system is not a good idea, it MIGHT be.
What is never a good idea is ever more taxes on businesses(and individuals), businesses that employ people like me and you.
Not eating too much cake is a good idea too, should there be a law that enforces that ?
Not cheating on your wife is also generally a good idea... etc etc



Dude, seriously? I'm sure you are not really THAT naive...



No one here has said profits are the most important thing in the world. Not once.
What some of us are advocating is that NON-AGRESSION (that is non-initiated agression) is the most important thing in the world. The right to be left alone is the most important thing in the world.
If people want to volunteer their money to one cause or another, that's great (I do) but don't make them.

It is wrong for me to steal from (or otherwise interfere with) you, but it is not wrong for you to steal from me. Does that seem fair to you?
Or it is not wrong for you and your friends to steal from me, even though a large group of other people support you. It doesn't matter how many people agree with you, stealing is defined quite well in the dictionary and repeatedly quoting socialists doesn't change that definition.



Is this really necessary mate ?



This point is very important, Helo touched on it already and it has already been stated that no one believes that corporations are never to blame for anything.

The problem here is the power that governments hold. For as long as we have a broadly powerful government, corporations and individuals will "buy" favours and power from the government.
IT DOESNT MATTER HOW MANY REGULATIONS YOU CAN COME UP WITH.
This will always be the case. So clearly the problem isn't the basic tendency of the greed of man, it is the power of the few over the many.
Reduce that power of the few (government) and the problem pretty much sorts itself out.
Without special favours, competition from other businesses/corporations is a very real threat and every businesses must always please its customer, if it doesn't then Goodbye (anyone remember Nokia ?)

The tragedy of the commons disappears and political corruption disappears (not fraud obviously).

You can't have companies getting special favours (large scale mining rights, pollution exemptions etc) if government does not have the scope to grant these privileges. It becomes IMPOSSIBLE.

But of course statists cannot see this. They can only see bigger government and more regulations (that do the opposite of intended).

At the end of all this and thinking like an ordinary person who listens to ordinary news (mainstream) I fully understand why most people think the bottle tax is a good idea (still haven't seen any proof of this being the case though). I also think if the issue becomes big enough Coke will just bend over and take the hit for PR reasons even if they lose some sales and have to sack people as a result.
Coke has been at the brunt of a lot more ridiculous and expensive attacks by the government in it's very long and successful history.
I care nothing for coke, I'm just not a hater of all things big and successful, and I have a strong set of principles that I apply to everyone, not just certain groups.

Are you kidding ? It's still my favorit wellies

cheers

Still in agreement we both include "the worthless classes", unlike HM or ?

cheers

No I have been robbed, and everyone who pays taxes is being robbed. You are forced to send money to the government under the threat of arrest. That is robbery. Call it what you want, but when something is taken from someone by force it is theft. My goal is to help bankrupt the system, so yes I do plan on getting assistance if my company drops my health coverage because of bobo care. Screw them and I plan on doing everything in my power to disrupt what they are doing.



It is not a legal right here, and I don't believe any money should go from the government to people ever. Either fend for youself, or hope someone is willing to help you. But it should not come from taxes stolen from the working class.



LMAO, you do realize we had all these services (fire, police, roads and so on) before we had income taxes and we did just fine. In fact that is the time in our history that we where the number 1 country in the world.





You are right about one thing that statement does speak for itself. I have ethics and am very moral, I am just sick and tired of the government stealing then wasting my money. I only have two choices, keep working and letting them, or saying screw that and stop working and try to get back as much of it as I possibly can. No one deserves my money more than me. I earned it. I am not lucky enough to have a taxable income I put things aside I wanted and busted my arse and earned what I have. Looks to me like you must be one of the ones receiving money from your government. I don't want to quit working, but I will not continue to support this BS for much longer. And I will do everything I can to see it fail. When it fails I will go back to work. I do everything I can to not pay taxes. It is the number one reason I don't buy lots of new products, and I shop online, and when I do work outside of my profession it is cash only.





Well I can't help how you perceive things. Like I said do you realize that before 1913 we did not have an income tax? The government has overstepped its bounds and is into things it should not be into. I would be fine with a tax for the things listed in the constitution. But as long as tax money is going to welfare, healthcare, and all the other government BS I am against it. For one thing you don't know if my kids got o public school. My wife does not receive hand outs. She receives payments due to injuries she got while serving our country. Veterans should be taken care of, they served and where told they would be taken care of. It is part of the volunteer military we have. The federal government has no business in the states. My state will raise money to pay for public services. That is not the job of the federal government. And wellfare, food stamps and so on is not a public service. Get a job you low life garbage ( not directed at you if you earned your own things, I used you as a general term).




No I don't. I can either contribute or receive. No other real choices. No my money is financing the crack head down the road, and the woman with 8 kids from different dads. That is BS. I don't get my money back. The only thing I use that is government funded is the hwy, and that is only so I can go to work and pay for all the POS people that don't work and collect government cheese. And a state hwy tax is fine by me. You don't hear me bitching about my property taxes do you? No it is federal taxes I have a problem with.





Thanks, I believe only those hurt while performing a function of society. I believe we should take care of police, firemen, and military, and so on that are hurt protecting our country, and our society. No one that did not earn that support should receive it. Now in my community there are plenty places people that need help can go. I donate regularly to some of these places. I just gave a bunch of furniture to a family that lost there home to fire. I also gave a few hundred bucks to another family not long ago that lost there home in a fire. What I don't believe in is my money being taken and given to people I don't think should get it. This is not about charity, this is about government forced charity. When almost 30k dollars is taken from me without my permission every year that is BS.





Try to read what is written, not what you perceive. I collect zero money from any source other than my employer. I said I qualify and and earned benefits. That does not mean I ever used them. I did not even use the college money that I earned while I served.



Either you can't read, or you are being ingenuous. I don't receive any money from any government agency.



Where do you get this crap? Did you get an education? Where did I ever say I was not in favor of the military. I support the military 100%. It is one of the few constitutional things the government is supposed to spend money on.



HUH???? I learned my trade in the U.S.Army. I worked on Apache helicopters for 6 years. When I got out I studied my butt off and went and paid my money to take a test. I passed that test and got my license to work on aircraft. Yes I still have to pay taxes, regardless of where my money was earned. Just because I don't support a war, or my governments decision to go and fight in certain places (yes I am against our current wars) does not mean I don't support the troops that where told to go and fight. I support them 100%, in fact I take them into my home regularly and allow them to hunt on my property free of charge. I also supply them with all the food and drinks they want. I have made many new friends doing this.





That is what happens when you think you get it wrong. I love my country, and my state. I am fed up with my out of control federal government. And since there are only 3 options to deal with the federal government. 1 live with it. 2 fight them in a civil war. and 3 secede, I would like to see Texas secede and leave the U.S., because I would rather not see the death that would come from a war. Although I am not against an all out war if it is necessary. I have no problem fighting to the death for freedom.




Yes that is the only way to try to bankrupt the system. Texas has not stolen 30k dollars from me this year.



I will enjoy many of them today.

The answer seems simple
run for parliament get things changed. (make more laws and complications in our lives.)

or
open your own bottling plant offer a 10 cent refund, everybody will buy your product for the 10 cents and send coke broke.

carrying on about people not wanting to have the government steal their hard earned money so the government can the use that money to bribe others to vote for them, seems completely off topic.

And nobody has explained how the original protests of putting out of order signs on perfectly good working machines, depriving people of earning an income (from which they pay the taxes to pay the people to pick up the litter) is a good idea