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The tower idea has a flaw - the H2 and O2 will be separated - H2 is MUCH lighter than O2 so it will collect at the top of the tower while the O2 is lower down.

I wouldn't be too sure about the limitations of physics - Google and read about Thomas Townshend Browne - guy spent 30 years working on electrogravitics which, to say the least, stretches the boundaries of the physics WE are taught.

Also check out Ed Leedskalnin of Coral Castle fame - another guy who seemed a touch blithe in his respect for the LAWS of physics.

The other problem remains that these towers would have to be massive, the amount of water produced from a hydrogen burn is very, very little.

In the end, about 80% of the original energy generated in order to produce the hydrogen is lost, for an EROI of 0.25.
Since it doesn't pay to have an energy regime with an EROI of less than one, hydrogen cars seems a permanent improbability.

An EROEI of more than ~3, then, is what appears necessary to provide the energy for societally important tasks, such as maintaining government, legal and financial institutions, a transportation infrastructure, manufacturing, building construction and maintenance and the life styles of the rich and poor that a society depends on.

Author:	MacGyver [ Sep 25th, '12, 18:02 ]
Post subject:	Hydrogen Power
Split water into hyrdogen and oxygen using electrolysis and then via fuel cells or combustion, produce electricity with the exhaust being steam which turns back into water. In the above scenario there will be a certain efficiency level that can be reached in that you will get less out than was put in thanks to the laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy. Does anyone know how efficient the above process can be made? Hydrogen and Oxygen are quite light and therefore buoyant. What if the H and O and allowed to rise to the top of a very high tower and the combustion or reaction occurs there, then the exhaust water will have plenty of potential energy which can also be converted to kinetic energy by letting it fall and run some turbines. Could this extra added step make up for the loss of energy thus powering Aquaponics systems world wide?

Author:	Edgewateraqua [ Sep 25th, '12, 19:49 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
Can't get something for nothing I'd say. Sounds a bit like a perpetual motion type of thing to me. Sorry to be a hater but physics tends to rule free energy. E=MC² and all that....

Author:	MacGyver [ Sep 25th, '12, 23:12 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
You are more than likely right in this case Edgewateraqua. The Universe is an amazing place though so you never know what is possible. Energy is not created or destroyed but just changes form according to modern day physics.

Author:	slowRider [ Sep 25th, '12, 23:38 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
It takes more energy to break the molecule into its individual components than burning the H and O produces. In the end, it can never be more efficient than a 0-sum game. Its not a worthless idea, though. If you (or someone) find a way to use something that is not easily harnessed like low-moderate heat (below 100C) and used it to convert the water into H and O, you could then burn them and get some useful energy from fairly useless energy. Personally, I'd go a different route and look into solar Stirling engines if you're looking for mechanical motion and solar panels if you're looking for electricity.

Author:	solidwoods [ Mar 10th, '13, 00:37 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
If you have a fuel source: Check out gasification of carbon based products. A good company is GEk in California . They make free plans to cutout shee tmetal parts to turn key packages. 10kw and 20kw systems. I've built my own gasifier to run a 4cyl 174 cubic inch engine. Next is to add on my 30kw generator. It uses scrap heat from the gasifier gas filter/cooler to heat the greenhouse. Search youtube for gasifier and you will see allot of people doing it. jim

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Hydrogen Power http://byap.backyardmagazines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=13747	Page 1 of 2

Author:	Ronmaggi [ Mar 10th, '13, 02:51 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
There are tons of instructables on gasifiers. The turbine may help counteract some of the ineffencies. I always thought that a fuel cell up high, with the electrodes down low might be an interesting way to get water up higher than is practical with centrifugal pumps. The water in the lowest part of the system would have a ton of nutrient, fresh clean water would be added to the fish tank. You would just have to make sure that the new water does not dilute the fish tank too much, as it might cause all of the fishes' cells to rupture... Also, half of why you get is pure oxygen. That might be nice to pump directly into the fish tank. If the energy inputs turn out to be less than the requirements required to to the same in a centrifugal pump system, it would be worth it in my opinion. In a massively vertical system it might work well. If you only recovered 50% of the energy it took to generate the hydrogen, but it only took 200 watts to generate the ammount needed for the fuel cell to exhaust the water needed to run the massively vertical system, then you would be expending 100 watts. Not bad for getting the water high enough. Those numbers are purely speculative, but you get the gist.

Author:	bigwill [ Mar 10th, '13, 07:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
Honda car power a car with it http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/ so why not?

Author:	Yavimaya [ Mar 10th, '13, 08:11 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
has anyone tried splitting hydrogen at home? It takes alot of energy for little hydrogen, you also need a catalyst to make the electolysis efficient enough to bother, now if you use salt as the catalyst (common at home, i never could find proper stuff to use), you alos get chlorine gas. Oxygen bubbles off one electrode, hydrogen the other, The chlorine if i remember correctly comes off with the oxygen, so any oxygen collected also contains chlorine gas. I never did enough study to find out if the sodium part splits off with the hydrogen or not, but i couldnt even make enough to pressurise a balloon properly.

Author:	Journeyman [ Mar 10th, '13, 09:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
The tower idea has a flaw - the H2 and O2 will be separated - H2 is MUCH lighter than O2 so it will collect at the top of the tower while the O2 is lower down. I wouldn't be too sure about the limitations of physics - Google and read about Thomas Townshend Browne - guy spent 30 years working on electrogravitics which, to say the least, stretches the boundaries of the physics WE are taught. Also check out Ed Leedskalnin of Coral Castle fame - another guy who seemed a touch blithe in his respect for the LAWS of physics.

Author:	werdna [ Mar 10th, '13, 10:37 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
Fuel cells would be more efficient, combustion produces heat, light and noise which reduces efficiency. Either way though, it is no different to trying to recharge a battery by plugging it into a motor, connected to a generator, connected to a battery charger, connected to the battery. Solar Stirling motors are definitely an amazing technology, and they can run off wet steam, unlike turbines

Author:	MacGyver [ Mar 10th, '13, 11:21 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
Journeyman wrote: The tower idea has a flaw - the H2 and O2 will be separated - H2 is MUCH lighter than O2 so it will collect at the top of the tower while the O2 is lower down. I wouldn't be too sure about the limitations of physics - Google and read about Thomas Townshend Browne - guy spent 30 years working on electrogravitics which, to say the least, stretches the boundaries of the physics WE are taught. Also check out Ed Leedskalnin of Coral Castle fame - another guy who seemed a touch blithe in his respect for the LAWS of physics. There would be two separate collection towers, one for the anode and one for the cathode. Once water is returned to a liquid state at the top then it is allowed to fall powering turbines.

Author:	Yavimaya [ Mar 10th, '13, 14:06 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
The other problem remains that these towers would have to be massive, the amount of water produced from a hydrogen burn is very, very little.

Author:	MacGyver [ Mar 10th, '13, 15:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
Yavimaya wrote: The other problem remains that these towers would have to be massive, the amount of water produced from a hydrogen burn is very, very little. Understood Yavimaya. Maybe Ronmaggi's idea has potential.

Author:	Snags [ Mar 10th, '13, 19:52 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
I dont think Hydrogen is the long term sustainable answer just the short term pie in the sky delusion Quote: In the end, about 80% of the original energy generated in order to produce the hydrogen is lost, for an EROI of 0.25. Since it doesn't pay to have an energy regime with an EROI of less than one, hydrogen cars seems a permanent improbability. http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea ... hype-49540 Quote: An EROEI of more than ~3, then, is what appears necessary to provide the energy for societally important tasks, such as maintaining government, legal and financial institutions, a transportation infrastructure, manufacturing, building construction and maintenance and the life styles of the rich and poor that a society depends on. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Societal_collapse

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Author:	MacGyver [ Mar 10th, '13, 20:03 ]
Post subject:	Re: Hydrogen Power
You are probably right Snags! Unless nuclear fusion power generation becomes a possibility. I have also been looking at these ideas: Wave Energy on the Coast of Perth: And also Solar Thermal Molten Salt: