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PostPosted: Nov 20th, '07, 21:32 
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Quick question - which is best ,molasses from sugar cane or from sugar beet.? The latter is used as an animal feed supplement here and I have used this for protection from cabbage white grubs and it is OK.
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PostPosted: Nov 20th, '07, 21:35 
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I'm going to open a can of worms here (lol) but worm farm leachate IS NOT worm tea.

in one of the links i posted at the start is goes into great depth on why.

i just had this arguement with mum tonight. FAR to many websites say thatworm tea is the run off (leachate).

The leachate contains partially decomposed plant matter, alcohols, terpenes and often anaerobic bacteria. It is nutritionaly very poor compared to true worm tea and needs to be diluted atleast 10:1 becasue the above mentioned products are actually phyto-toxins that will damage the plant.

worm tea is the water in which worm castings have been steeped in.

Much of my original post was about the further step of airating and adding some brown sugar or molasas (with no sulphite) for 48 hrs to grow the popuilation of beneficial organisms.

yep worm casting look like fertile black dirt, and can take quite a while to be complete depending on the amount of worms. there should be no visibile remenants of the original organic matter.

Also, leachates can be high in pathogens which would be destroyed by the gut process of the worm in the finnished castings.

rant over


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PostPosted: Nov 20th, '07, 21:36 
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ok here are some quotes from the sites i linked to

Quote:
Organic Compost Tea vs. Leachate

Some bin manufacturers suggest that the liquid that drains out of a worm bin is compost tea. Bin instructions sometimes encourage worm bin users to pour water into their bins to get more "worm tea", as it's called. Unfortunately, this is leachate, not tea. It's a common misunderstanding. This leachate contains only a very small percentage of the nutrients and microorganisms of tea, as well as a significant amount of undecomposed organic matter, that will quickly cause the liquid to turn anaerobic. Be careful, and only give this liquid to your plants if it is still aerobic (your nose will tell you), and don't pour water through worm bins. Use only finished stable vermicompost and follow specific tea-making instructions.

If you want to try out tea, without investing in a brewer, you may be able to find tea at a local nursery or commercial compost producer. If you cannot find fresh-made tea, you may have to buy a tea brewer.


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Some of the confusion regarding whether or not to use leachate results from the current popularity of so called "compost teas" and "castings teas". To ensure we are all on the same page, "teas" are defined as a steepage generated by placing finished, stable compost and/or worm castings in water; some folks agitate the water, some don't; some folks aerate the water, some don't; some add nutrient solutions to amplify the biology, some don't. Regardless, "teas" all use as the substrate from which the initial biological community, nutrient and other chemistry are extracted, finished, stable material.

Leachate, on the other hand, is liquid that drains from an actively decomposing mass of organic matter, thus it is liquid that is in contact with undecomposed material in the system. It is this factor, coupled with the cause for liquid to be draining in sufficient quantity that it can be collected, that creates concern.

Composting and vermicomposting are processes understood to destroy or significantly reduce pathogenic organisms, typically rendering their numbers suficiently low to pose little threat to human health. Because leachate drains through material that has not been thoroughly processed, however, pathogens like e-coli and salmonella associated with household organic waste and even yard debris can potentially be picked up in the leachate and contaminate the surfaces of fruits and veggies to which it is applied. It's important to understand that the concern is not that plants might take these pathogens up through their systems, but is a concern over surface contamination of garden produce. Those who chose to use leachate on edible plants are encouraged to wait several weeks after application before harvesting to ensure pathogens have died off before produce is eaten.

Water is generated by the composting and vermicomposting processes as well as being released from OM as it is broken down. In most healthy worm bins and compost piles the released moisture is absorbed by the the surrounding OM, thus little water drains freely from the system. A healthy worm bin, for instance, generally produces little more than a few ml of liquid per week. A system from which liquid is draining freely is typically a system that is saturated, thus, it can hold no more water. This is of concern because the water saturating that system is displacing oxygen, setting up conditions favorable to anaerobic microorganisms. Even if there are no significant odors, very wet compost piles and worm bins tend to have significant levels of anaerobic activity. The by-products of anaerobic decomposition, phenols, terpenes and alcohols, are water soluble and are toxic to plant roots, thus leachates often contain significant concentrations of these phytotoxins though there is no outward evidence of such. These leachates applied to plants often cause damage and can even kill sensitive plant species or plants treated with leachate with significant levels of phytoxins. To be sure, many people use leachate with excellent effect, but for every leachate advocate whose garden sees tremendous benefit I can introduce you to someone who killed or weakened their garden with leachate use. It's a risky thing using leachate. Many people will dilute the leachate (the general recommendation is 10 parts clean water to one part leachate) which often, if not usually, does remediate problems, but dilution also tends to dilute the benefits, rendering the stuff little more benefical than plain water.

So, bottom line; leachate is generally discouraged for garden use, particularly on food crops.


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PostPosted: Nov 21st, '07, 05:26 
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question. if leachate contains so much unprocessed matter, why doesn't it stink? atleast i know the bottom of my farm definately doesn't.
The stuff also never grows mold which would be expected if it wasn't processed.

I think the primary difference is that the stuff in the bottom of my bin is excess moisture from the worm castings, not run off from a pile of food scraps as the article describes.


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PostPosted: Nov 21st, '07, 13:32 
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from the quote two posts up.

Quote:
A healthy worm bin, for instance, generally produces little more than a few ml of liquid per week. A system from which liquid is draining freely is typically a system that is saturated, thus, it can hold no more water. This is of concern because the water saturating that system is displacing oxygen, setting up conditions favorable to anaerobic microorganisms. Even if there are no significant odors, very wet compost piles and worm bins tend to have significant levels of anaerobic activity. The by-products of anaerobic decomposition, phenols, terpenes and alcohols, are water soluble and are toxic to plant roots, thus leachates often contain significant concentrations of these phytotoxins though there is no outward evidence of such.


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 05:36 
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i'd say my system leaks 50ml a week in addition to very fine castings that drop down through the mesh under the system's own weight. and everything i've poured it on has grown really well.
What that whole article describes is a very unhealthy over fed and over watered worm farm. in a system which isn't over fed you won't get leachate because the worms won't give it a chance. I throw in a handful of food from my scrap bin and it's gone the next morning.


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 13:05 
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exactly, so a shotty or two each week isn't going to be enough to water much even diluted 10:1 ergo you're not collecting the leachate that the article is describing.

i have not added water to my worm farm for over a year.


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 13:15 
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i never add water, i just damp newspaper to cover the handfull of food i throw in.
if your bottom collected run off from rotting food i reckon it'd smell like the tip.


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 14:49 
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i'll open another can of worms and say that leachate oxygenated with an airstone or water pump for 48 hours is as good as (if not better then) using seeped worm casting.

as noted the problem with leachate directly from the bed is that its anerobic and contains unprocessed matter. my theory (based on some vermicultural operations i've seen) is that the microbes in the leachate grow when aerated and consume the unprocessed matter in the leachate, making it sutable to use on plants. when the leachate is anaerobic the unprocessed matter creates toxins which are actually harmful to plant roots.

just a thought based on no scientific research.

steve wrote:
I'm going to open a can of worms here (lol) but worm farm leachate IS NOT worm tea.

in one of the links i posted at the start is goes into great depth on why.

i just had this arguement with mum tonight. FAR to many websites say thatworm tea is the run off (leachate).

The leachate contains partially decomposed plant matter, alcohols, terpenes and often anaerobic bacteria. It is nutritionaly very poor compared to true worm tea and needs to be diluted atleast 10:1 becasue the above mentioned products are actually phyto-toxins that will damage the plant.

worm tea is the water in which worm castings have been steeped in.

Much of my original post was about the further step of airating and adding some brown sugar or molasas (with no sulphite) for 48 hrs to grow the popuilation of beneficial organisms.

yep worm casting look like fertile black dirt, and can take quite a while to be complete depending on the amount of worms. there should be no visibile remenants of the original organic matter.

Also, leachates can be high in pathogens which would be destroyed by the gut process of the worm in the finnished castings.

rant over


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 15:03 
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Mmm interesting?
My worm farm while bodgey built :oops: is probably the size of a nice large rectangular grow bed. If i dont water then my worms production dropps off significantly :? (processing food wastes and animal wastes), the population seems to drop and the matter breaks up/ dries into little balls(plenty of little worm eggs tho). When I water the worms I may be geting the Leachate but it definatly doesnt run free through the bed (would like to think percolates down and well thats my little fantasy) and I never get the 9lt in the collection bucked (it only hold about 4 lt and usually only half fills if tha :| t. The worm wee that I collect doesnt smell or seem to deteriorate as some times I will forget to use it and it may sit for a month or so???Am about to do an entire bed change in any event :shock: . Plant growth is definatly enhanced from the use of it tho... :) :D


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 15:24 
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is your worm farm open?

mine had a lid and only quite small air holes. maybe your is drier because the water is evaporating?

i will agree with you that aerobic microbs might remediate leachate, particularly if seeded with some finnished aerobic castings, but then will they also process any alcohols terpenes and others that are the metabolic byproduct of the original anerobic bacteria?

food for thought anyway


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 15:35 
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yes my worms are covered.

I have a rubber carpet underlay as a cover for the bed. It does however get a bit of direct sun and that probably contributes to the drying out of the bed :) .

Is is all really good food for thought :? so when I do the bed change Ill pop the castings into a drum, air-rate itand have a go at brewing a proper tea. :D

Just another project /science project in the paddock, should probably set up a control in the dirt garden and run one with leachate, one with Tea and a control 8) :wink:


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 16:23 
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steve wrote:

i will agree with you that aerobic microbs might remediate leachate, particularly if seeded with some finnished aerobic castings, but then will they also process any alcohols terpenes and others that are the metabolic byproduct of the original anerobic bacteria?


to many big words in there for me, just a simple bio-farmer here. i challenge you steve to find out. i would love to know the result. i doubt any studies have been done on it. wouldn't think it would be a very attractive project for most scientists. i could be wrong though.


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PostPosted: Nov 22nd, '07, 18:47 
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if i had a mass spectrometer (now who was the member with access to one of those jobbies?) i would.

tree beards experiment sounds like it will be good, maybe add a third variable as bio-f has mentioned.


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PostPosted: Nov 23rd, '07, 09:34 

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Hi WD 'n all,

welshdragon wrote:
We have been using 1 teaspoon of molasses to a gallon of water as an insecticide against cabbage white butterflies and their caterpillars.It seems to deter the butterflies from landing on the brassicas and laying eggs AND it does not seem to have any effect on the fish in the tank.


Just to clarify the above, are you using 1 tsp of molasses to a galon of clean water, or to a gallon of compost tea? Presumably the latter.

Cheers,
PM


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