Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

There have been reports of natural commercial pyrethrum sprays killing fish. I have a suspicion that may be the added surfactants which are usually not listed that are the danger.

Copied from somewhere

(1)Mix together 1 teaspoon Condy's crystals, 1 tablespoon Epsom salts and 1 bucket water, and use to spray plants regularly. Once a week, tip a few cups of the mixture around the base of the plant. Discontinue once the aphids have gone.

(2)Place sheets of shiny aluminium foil around the base of a plant – it will reflect the sunlight and deter aphids by ‘blinding’ them.
(had heard that it disoriented them)

(3)Trap aphids in a bowl of detergent containing a few drops of yellow food colouring in it. Aphids are attracted to yellow, and they will land in the dish and drown.

Not sure re 1 .epsom salts ok potassium permangenate questionable (has its goods and questionables)

Think 3 is the best providing it isn't spilt

OMG: the synthetic form of pyrethrin (permethrin) is used to kill off all marine life in infested lakes and rivers around here when we have invasive aliens and wikipedia says pyrethrins are "particularly harmful to aquatic life", so be careful! Says harmful to fish, but pretty safe for birds and mammals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrethrin

On ladybugs: you will likely see the larvae first and they are horrible looking monsters, but ravenous for ladybugs, so don't kill them. http://images.google.com/images?ie=UTF- ... a=N&tab=wi

We have some fly maggots up here that eat the aphids as well: one will just poke around blindly until it touches prey, then takes a firm grip with its mouthparts and heaves the struggling aphid into the air where it holds it for a minute or two while it sucks out the juices, leaving a dried husk which it wipes off onto the leaf before hunting up another snack. Quite entertaining. The easiest sign that something like this is going on is a dearth of live aphids on a leaf, but a bunch of husks.

Sleepe,
Potassium permanganate is dangerous stuff. Please be careful with it. I do know that it can be used (very carefully!) to treat some fish parasites, but I personally would not use it in a system I intended to eat from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_permanganate

and a good MSDS
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/P6005.htm
It is very toxic to aquatic organisms, and has some unpleasant effects on human organisms, too.

Also, the most effective place to put a bowl of detergent would be near the aphids, so on top of the gravel bed. However, a spill would introduce detergent into the system. Not good for fish at all. Something to be aware of.

Condy's crystals can temporarly paralize fish.
Has been used by fisheries when doing a density check and also by fisherman.
Do not know how long it takes for fish to recover.

pyrethrum is a natural based poison.
Most store bought pyrethrum sprays are synthetic compounds unsure if it does break down. Would not recomend it's use. containers usually come with warnings "Do not allow spray to get into drains, Steams Ponds.
Also has a the poisons warning If swollowed and not within 15 minutes of medical treamet Induce vomiting. Yep nice safe stuff.

OK, I've done some research: Pyrethrins are natural, not non-toxic. These and pyrethroids (synthetic versions) do break down fast and are fairly easily denatured by mammals so it is supposed to be safe to wear clothing well treated with it to protect from malaria, etc. The flea treatments for dogs and wipes for horses often contain it. Some special compounds are used to get mites off reptiles, so they can't be too sensitive. As the warnings say, really hard on insects and aquatic critters.

potassium permanganate or condy's crystals is imho a very good biocide. if you ever get any bugs or fungus on your feet, Condy's Crystals will kill it outright. (and stain any dead skin purple - permanently - until it sloughs off)
I would not be putting it anywhere near my fish. If I was told it would clear a fungal infection from the fish - I'd believe it, and try it if I was desperate. But many biocides for treating fish will harm the fish too - it's always a tradeoff, and I almost always lose a fish when treating a tank. Also, what will Condy's do the nitrobacter and other goodies like worms?

The yellow food dye in water is supposed to be effective. the only reason a small amount of detergent is added is to reduce surface tension and allow the aphids to drown. If you could find a non toxic way (although the amount required is only a couple of drops) of reducing the surface tension it would be a reasonable control.

Thinking about it if you could get yellow sticky paper it would probably work as well.

Your right KP Condys crystals used to be an old treatment for athletes foot as well as providing me much entertainment in my youth trying to make things explode.
The other half of the mix epsom salts is interesting and I may try that on the garden plants to see if it has any effect by itself.
No aphids at the moment only green loopers.

Sleepe,

Have you tried a mix of potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulfur? Grind with some water to make a paste, then let it dry. That, with a magnifying glass, worked wonders for getting rid of tent caterpillars (very fast!) when I was growing up. Non-toxic, too.....

Lecithin is a non-toxic surfactant, but I have never actually handled it so I don't know if it dissolves in water and could be sprayed or how it would affect plants.

Isn't that the formula for gun powder? 60/30/10 :bom:

Is that paste spread on the leaves? What about the sulfur will it kill the bacteria?

Lecithin.. I have used soy Lecithin. I spilled it and just about never got it cleaned up. It will dissolve some, but a little goes a LONG ways.

Isn't that the formula for gun powder? 60/30/10

Hmmm, yeeess.....maybe that explains the smoke and the sudden disappearance of the caterpillars......

I was serious about the lecithin, though. If we had aphids this time of hear I would test it out. Reports from the field, anyone?

I believe Hydrophilia was suggesting to apply the potassium nitrate mixture to the tent, and then lighting it with the focused beam from a magnifying glass.

Steeeeeeve!!!!! They're blowing things up without you!!!

I thought he was using the magnifying glass to torcher the caterpillars. You know get even, but its true you could light some gunpowder with it too

Usually just give them free swimming lessons

Hydro. You may have found something very useful see link
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0448070.html

Hydro. You may have found something very useful see link
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP0448070.html[/quote]

Not my fault! No! Steve said "There have been reports of natural commercial pyrethrum sprays killing fish. I have a suspicion that may be the added surfactants which are usually not listed that are the danger." and I googled "non-toxic surfactants". Blame HIM!

Actually, this is one thing I really enjoy and find a lot on this forum: people building on comments or thoughts until we come up with some really neat ideas. Light, fun, interesting, engaged, smart. Good people.