Some examples (noted that in one of the forums that amquel plus is one of the recommended to use yet still has that warning label
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| Dechlorinators not food safe? http://byap.backyardmagazines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=9890 |
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| Author: | muffettsman [ Jun 15th, '11, 08:34 ] |
| Post subject: | Dechlorinators not food safe? |
Every type of de-chlorinator I have found have all said not safe for consumption in the fine print - even the ones that's main ingredient is just Sodium thiosulfate - if your tap water has chloramines is the only safe way to clean it is with reverse osmosis or carbon filters? >_< |
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| Author: | muffettsman [ Jun 15th, '11, 08:36 ] | ||
| Post subject: | Dechlorinators not food safe? | ||
Some examples (noted that in one of the forums that amquel plus is one of the recommended to use yet still has that warning label
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| Author: | muffettsman [ Jun 15th, '11, 08:38 ] |
| Post subject: | Dechlorinators not food safe? |
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| Author: | SolTun [ Jun 15th, '11, 08:42 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/chlorine-chloramine |
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| Author: | RupertofOZ [ Jun 15th, '11, 09:12 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
muffettsman wrote: Every type of de-chlorinator I have found have all said not safe for consumption in the fine print - even the ones that's main ingredient is just Sodium thiosulfate - if your tap water has chloramines is the only safe way to clean it is with reverse osmosis or carbon filters? >_< Most "dechlorinators" are Sodium Thiosulphate based... or a similar drivative.... and yep, there are mounting concerns as to health effects from Sodium Thiosulphate.... And in terms of "dechlorinating" water... there's just no need to use them... as chlorine is readily dissapated by exposure to sunlight and bubbling... for about 24 hours... Chlorimine is a little more difficult to deal with.... and there's several threads concerning these issues... While fresh activated charcoal can help break the chlorine/ammonia bond in chloromines.... reverse osmosis will have absolutely no effect on the compound at all... it will pass through an RO membrane... Similarly.... Amquel Plus is regularly mentioned on many "aquaria" forums... as having been responsible for fish kills, or problems... And the MSDS lists many of it's components which are listed by the EPA as toxic... to both humans and aquatic life.... Amquel Plus can also deplete oxygen from your tank water... Don't use any aquaria products... there's just no need... there are other alternatives... and most are either carcenogenic... or not designed for use with fish intended for human consumption... |
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| Author: | stucco [ Jun 15th, '11, 09:37 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2575/ClorAm-X the cloramx has the American sanitation institute approval for food fish. |
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| Author: | RupertofOZ [ Jun 15th, '11, 09:55 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
Cloram-X is Synonyms: (1)
sodium formaldehydebisulfite; methylolsulfonic acid sodium salt Chemical Formula: dry (pure): HOCH2SO3Na And "Amquel" ... is made from ClorAm-X...  Quote: ClorAm-X is the ingredient in “Powdered AmQuel”. And funnily enough... the product site makes specific mention that common test kits for both ammonia and DO... will give "false" readings when you use the product... Quote: Water treated with ClorAm-X® will give false (high), off-scale readings with ammonia test kits that use Nessler's reagents. Water treated with ClorAm-X® is compatible with most salicylate and phenol/hypochlorite test kits. Contact AquaScience if there is a question about ammonia test kit compatibilities. Water treated with ClorAm-X® is compatible with all known nitrite and low-range nitrate test kits. Water treated with ClorAm-X® is incompatible with Winkler and modified Winkler dissolved oxygen (DO) test kits. These kits will give false, low, or zero, readings. I don't know who "the American sanitation institute" is ... but the FDA... Quote: determined that the use of the chemical that constitutes ClorAm-X® (sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate) in water with fishes, intended for human consumption, does not come under FDA jurisdiction. For a full copy of the MSDS.. which is no longer listed on the manufacturers web site... http://www.koidepot.com/pdf/ClorAm-XDataSheet.pdf |
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| Author: | Mr Damage [ Jun 15th, '11, 10:40 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
Quote: formaldehyde sodium bisulfite; sodium formaldehydebisulfite; methylolsulfonic acid sodium salt Tells me everything I'd need to know if I was contemplating using it! |
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| Author: | stucco [ Jun 15th, '11, 11:14 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
Though there may be those who have never had to deal with the issue of chloramines- it is a common practice in the water treatment in our area- and unfortunately a problem that we have to deal with constantly. I agree that a more natural alternative would be a better solution, but at this time we have not found any products other than ClorAm-X which stand by the statement that the product is safe for fish used for human consumption- and though there may be some residual effects which may in the future cause a change in the use of this product - it is... at this time... the most viable option for those of us in areas of chloramine treated water. An excerpt on Cloram-x Thus, Cloram-X® is the technology of the original Amquel® – and we can think of it as performing the same tasks as the product that we used to call Amquel®. Actually, Cloram-X® is an improvement on the formula as it does not have a detrimental effect on dissolved oxygen and has a better buffering agent so as not to impact pH. Key Benefits: Destroys Chloramines Removes Ammonia Removes Chlorine Won't Affect Dissolved Oxygen Levels Reduces pH Drop and last but not least...tested and labeled as Non-Toxic To Humans, Pets & Aquatic Life and therefore safe for all AP systems. Though I do not always agree that the FDA has 'our back' when it comes to what is good for us- I do not believe they would just relinquish all jurisdiction over said chemical compound if there was a convincing argument that they should have control over the use of it- i mean we are talking about a government organization here, and so I say find another alternative and let me know- until then... |
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| Author: | RupertofOZ [ Jun 15th, '11, 15:36 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
To quote from the MSDS PDF file... Quote: There is only one substance which not only dechloraminates water, but is also stable in solution, is nontoxic and has been determined by the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) that it does not come under their regulation. ClorAm-X® is, therefore, suitable for use on fishes and aquatic invertebrates intended for human consumption. This substance is found in ClorAm-X® and is protected by US and foreign patents. The fact that the product does not come under the FDA regulations.... DOES NOT mean that it is "suitable for fishes and aquatic invertebrates intended for human consumption".... It just means that it doesn't fall under FDA jurisdication.... The effects of Sodium Thiosulfite.. and derivitve compounds... are becoming increasingly concerning.... The claims are merely a sales pitch... not scientific fact... The product does not "destroy chlormines"... or "remove ammonia"... "or remove chlorine"... other than it can cause the chloramine to unbind into chlorine and ammonium ions... which then reassociate into salt NaCl... and via root absorbtion and nitrification the ammonium is eventually converted to nitrates... The reactions are "oxidising"... and can affect DO levels and pH... although the newer "Amquel" products are supposedly formulated to minimise these effects... they still issue warnings regarding temporary "spikes" in ammonia, and "dips" in DO... hence their references to readings from various test kits... The claim that ... "tested and labeled as Non-Toxic To Humans, Pets & Aquatic Life" ... is a sales pitch... not necessarily backed by scientific evidence.... And the claim "and therefore safe for all AP systems"... is an opinion based on the above... which may well not be valid.... Time, UV, aeration and activated charcoal... and minimising the use of chloramated water to less than 10% at any one time.... will resolve the issue of chloramined water.... There are many other posts concerning the subject... especially the concerns related to Sodium Thiosulphite... if you wish to pursue it further... Each to their own... I wouldn't use it... it's totally unproven, or at least questionable in terms of it's claims to do anything other than what would occur naturally over time.... and there are serious concerns as to the health effects of the principle ingredients... |
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| Author: | swanberg [ Jun 17th, '11, 08:35 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
Rupe, do you have references for the increasing concerns regarding Sodium thiosulfate? |
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| Author: | Wildfire [ Jun 17th, '11, 09:14 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
After a lot of thought if I had to remove chloramine from my water again i would look at an ozone generator |
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| Author: | hellbent [ Jun 18th, '11, 10:00 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
i saw that glenn martinez i using a GE heavy duty water filter with 3/4" water hose fittings to filter chlorine from our tap water here. when i asked him about it, he said he had it tested and it works well. there were several filters you can purchase for it, not sure how well it does with chloramines though. http://www.homedepot.com/buy/appliances ... 26038.html |
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| Author: | Tai-tai [ Oct 27th, '11, 04:57 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
stucco wrote: http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/2575/ClorAm-X the cloramx has the American sanitation institute approval for food fish. Stucco-could you please refer me to the source for your statement? I asked the Hikari (makers of Chloram-X) people about it and didn't get a "yes" or "no." They replied they would evaluate the document if I would give them the reference. |
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| Author: | sendthis [ Nov 3rd, '11, 11:00 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Dechlorinators not food safe? |
I'm really curious about the dangers of sodium thiosulfate... First, the reaction of sodium thiosulfate and chlorine/chloramine is quite well known and understood. While salt may be undesirable, I'm not quite sure what the harm table salt (NaCl) and Sulfur will do? In fact, sulfate is found in many fertilizers. It's not needed in obscene quantities, but neither is sodium thiosulfate. To give it some perspective, you can treat over 100 gallons of chlorinated water with 1 gram of sodium thiosulfate. While not proof of their safety, chlorinated water is treated with sodium thiosulfate before being dumped back into the environment. As far as the US is concerned, before the EPA approves something like that, there's usually million dollar studies. Second, the oxygen concern is kind of odd. Sodium Thiosulfate and other chemical dechlorinators do consume oxygen for their reaction. Thiosulfate being one of the least oxygen 'hungry' compounds. However, the oxygen is quickly recovered by agitating the surface of the water (or by providing a large surface area). Oxygen depletion is not persistent and only happens while the dechlor is reacting with chlorine. Third, the use of sodium thiosulfate on chloramine isn't too much of a concern since it neutralizes the chlorine and leaves ammonia. If you have a cycled system, especially one with plants, the ammonia is quickly converted to nitrates. Plants do utilize ammonia in small amounts but is not the primary way it gets nitrogen. Anyway... I don't have a problem keeping an open mind about "growing" concerns but I am definitely interested in reading the evidence that suggests it is. I use both Seachem Safe and generic sodium thiosulfate for my tanks. A better alternative if you have a chlorine system is to age and agitate the water so it naturally gases off. That is not so easy with chloramine. Honestly, I'm more concerned about chlorine (think household bleach in 4ppm) than I am about table salt and sulfur. I can definitely point you on articles about chlorine being unsafe for fish even in small concentrations. I just searched and couldn't find any that said sodium thiosulfate was bad although I did see a couple talking about it as medical treatments for certain conditions. |
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