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Southern California Fish Selection
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Author:  naturalmagic [ Jun 16th, '10, 12:36 ]
Post subject:  Southern California Fish Selection
Hello everyone,

I've been interested in sustainable agriculture for awhile and it has naturally led me to aquaponics. I have been lurking the forums for a few weeks and I finally signed up because I am working on my own project and needed the help. I have a few questions, specific to California and/or the States (it seems like there are so many cool species of fish and other tasty creatures, but then I realize they are specific to Australia! i.e. Marron).

1. I live in a coastal city in Southern California, I was wondering what fish would be ideal for the climate? I feel like the climate is right on the edge between warm and cold I'd say average is 75? (Costa Mesa), as it does get pretty cold during the winter, but it also could reach the 90s during the summer. (Although I do not know how that translates to water temperature) From the research I have done, Channel Catfish seems to come recommended. It's probably too cold for Tilapia, I think trout is a possibility as well but I do not know if it will get too hot.

2. Would I be able to grow crawfish (or redclaw or some other sort of crustacean available in the states) in this climate? How about freshwater mussels? Freshwater shrimp or prawns?

3. What do catfish eat? I am definitely interested in raising a feeder stock like guppies or something, what would be appropriate for catfish? And on that note, do catfish eat duckweed? Algae?

4. This question is not really related to fish but does anyone know where I can get some large fish safe tanks in the states? (for cheap hopefully haha)

Thanks for any responses, I have not been able to stop looking through this site since I have found it and some of you guys have some insane systems! Can't wait to get started but need to finish my research first :D
Author:  naturalmagic [ Jun 17th, '10, 05:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
Anddd has anyone tried freshwater clams in their systems?
Author:  Angie [ Jun 17th, '10, 07:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
I would highly recommend koi. I have been raising koi, goldfish, and catfish in aquaculture pond type settings for over a year now. All of these cane handle cold weather but last summer, I lost a few catfish when temps went up as I didn't do a regular water change and they had grown considerably in a few month's time. They have been moved into my earthen pond.
The koi, on the other hand, grew a lot slower but had no water changes at all and I still have all of them. Also koi are hardier when transporting them; the catfish are suprisingly more delicate than I had expected.
Also in the financial scheme of things, koi command much higher prices than catfish ever will.
In regards to other species, California Dept. of Fish and Game is very strict on what you can keep- ornimentals being the exception to the rule.
Author:  TCLynx [ Jun 17th, '10, 09:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
For larger systems you can get plastic water tanks like for storing drinking water, they could be cut down for use as fish tanks. but for small systems, I'm kinda partial to Rubbermaid Stock Tanks at the moment. A 300 gallon stock tank is big enough to raise eating size channel catfish. Channel Catfish are not bad to keep but you do want to avoid stressing them out too often, I kinda call them scardy cats. They do need good quality water but that can be done by designing a system with plenty of filtration to support them. They do grow big and fast so you want to avoid stocking too many in a small system. I would probably only stock about 1 channel catfish (assuming a probable harvest size of 2 lb) per 2 cubic feet of grow bed media in a grow out system and be sure there is plenty of water turn over and aeration. I often grow my catfish much larger than 2 lb though.

Catfish are counted as omnivores but they are really more carnivorous and usually eat small creatures like bugs, crustations, and small aquatic life. They will happily eat commercial feed pellets and that I what I have been using for the most part with the addition of bugs ala bug zappers over the fish tanks. The will also eat some worms and BSF larva but that should only be a supplement to the diet and not the entire diet. I don't expect algae or duckweed to play much of a role in feeding catfish. You might be able to raise small shrimp or something supplemental catfish feed.
Author:  DéjàVoodoo [ Jun 17th, '10, 10:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
Well - if you plan to eat the fish, I would not advise koi. BlueGill and catfish will probably be the easiest for your weather. How cold does it actually get there? Another option depending on funds might be to contain the system in a greenhouse. I am in texas with much hotter temps then you and still plan on a GH to try and maximize tilapia growout. Most people around here just use the fish pellets as feed. They are formulated for fish growth and pretty cheap. Crawfish are an option also, but they require a lot of space. I started with about twelve in a small tank and ended up with only 4 after they all ate each other. There are some people on here that do fresh water clams also, but I do not know much about them. There are also fresh water shrimp, but my understanding is that they are like crawfish and require a lot of space.

I hear you on the marron...did some research and it looks like it would be legal to import them, but it is expensive. If we could get a dozon or so people willing to part with 200 bucks or so, could maybe get some breeding stock imported for each. It is the shipping that is a killer, and cost as much to overnight 2 as it would 100.
Author:  naturalmagic [ Jun 18th, '10, 02:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
Thanks for all the replies. All of this is very new to me (I've never cared for fish before really haha) but I've basically been lurking this site for the past couple of weeks now

- Koi would be cool if I wanted to sell them but I am most interested in aquaponics for the production of food, although looking at how much this is going to cost maybe I should try to sell some haha. Is DFG strict regarding private close looped stocks? And does strict mean you absolutely can not or it will cost money :think:

- Catfish seems to be the choice in terms of climate, taste, growth rate etc. What does the commercial feed consist of? I'm trying to stay away from the corn thing. What kind of water temperatures are optimal? Would they eat guppies? Haha I recently got some chickens and was rather disappointed because they just run away from you too. (And I finally understood why we call people chicken haha).

- Would trout be a viable option?

- A greenhouse would be really cool, but I am also trying to design a system I can disassemble and move eventually as the lease on the house is another year (maybe another 2 depending on this project lol). I would definitely want to have a giant greenhouse if I can move somewhere with some more land. The weather isn't too extreme here, the coldest it will get is like maybe 40F degrees for like a small period of time late at night (4 am? and not even often, maybe during the winter). But during the summers there will be days it hits like the 90s. But again, those are on the rather extreme ends, being near the coast I would say in the summer it would probably sit around low to mid 80s. winter low to mid 70s. With a climate like that, what kind of temperature do you think a greenhouse would maintain? I haven't really thought about a greenhouse or warm water fish because I thought that would automatically required heating but now that I think about it, a greenhouse here would probably be pretty good for warm water fish haha, but I am not so sure what kind of water temperatures to expect at night and etc.

-Yesterday I was able to pick up a round 380 gallon polyethelyne (4ft tall 4ft diameter) and will be using that as my fish tank, rather excited about that. I think I will be using an IBC as a sump and I currently have an 4ft H by 8ft L by 7inch (17.5CM) H. I was browsing around and saw recommended height is 30cm, was wondering if this tray will do. It can hold a good amount of volume, about 250 gallons if my calculations are correct andd I can grab a couple more of these if I lurk on craigslist for a few days for 100 to 150 bucks each. I can do this or I can cut an IBC in half and half about 140 gallons in each (100 $) but it kind of looks like a tough job cutting through that metal. My last and most expensive option would be to actually use the stock troughs as grow beds, I saw some members doing that and the 300 gallon trough has 30 sq feet of planting space available and it is deeper (2 ft) but it is pricer (300$ including shipping, although I saw one on craigslist for 175 but it was a 90 minute drive one way). Either way I'm going to have to get at least get one of these to use as my 2nd growbed, the tray I had available from a previous project but this one I want to make sure is optimal.

- Ah stupid crawfish haha, how big was the tank you put them in? I was thinking of like a 2nd FT for shrimp and crawfish and maybe mussels to help with cleaning the water.

- Holy crap! That the marron sound quite expensive, but it is good to know it is an option. I would definitely be interested if we could get enough people together. And if they are anything like their lobster cousins... wouldn't it make it all the more worth it? :D

Once again thanks for all the helpful advice, I'm trying to make these final decisions so I can get started on assembling everything.
Author:  Angie [ Jun 18th, '10, 03:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
California is strict on the importation of exotic species into the state and they require an import license and an inspection and you would also have to be licensed by CDFG before even being allowed to import- that is IF you could get permission in the first place. The only exotic food species that I know of are Tilapia and only one breeder of Red Claw, although I don't know how he managed to get approval.
To get an idea of what is allowed, just look up the aquaculture breeder directory that is posted on the web- it shows almost everyone who is licensed with the CDFG.

Larger catfish also eat live fish as well- we feed ours Shinners, AKA baitfish. They did not last long.

As far as a closed loop system, I have already spoken to the CDFG person who does the licensing and as long as the native fish (trout, catfish) are for personal use, you don't need any license.

I seriously believe that trout would need some sort of cooling system to survive summer. Catfish can handle a wide range of temps but will eat less in winter and require aeration in summer and constant monitoring of water quality.
Author:  jdphish [ Jun 18th, '10, 05:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
Macrobrachium rosenbergii, or freshwater prawn are limited to water temperatures above 70 degrees F. They are also considered an exotic in most states.

Like the other folks have mentioned, I would stick with a native species. Channel catfish are tough to beat and they readily accept formulated feed. Most commercial catfish feed is made of a mixture of soybeans, corn, wheat, vitamins, and minerals with high protein fish meal derived from the unused parts of processed catfish (yes, recycled).
Author:  Yaacov Levi [ Jun 18th, '10, 07:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
Yellow perch will do fine in your area, in a GH or ponds, or AP sysem.

Koi contrary to Conventional Wisdom are indeed a food fish, culls that dont make it as colorful enough for ornamentals are grown out and sold through oriental markets as premium farm raised fish, dont pass this niche up if you like growing koi.

It also makes breeding commercial koi a lot better paying operation then koi alone.

There used to be an experimental fish farm near the race track in your area, owned by a couple of college prof former hippies who used it as a tax loss, they had both channel catfish and the big rosenbergii and had several grad students from Scrips there, last I heard its now a big condo site.

I helped them build a greenhouse ornamentals hatchery, and was about to start with the Koi when I tired of the head trips.

You're in a great area for AP start ups. A lot of the grads at Scripps have been fixated on mussel culture there, and striped bass, worth your while to go down there and visit. It used to be every grad you ran into had a Bardachs in one hand and a list of grant sources in the other.

Enjoy, its a fun area.
Author:  Angie [ Jun 18th, '10, 08:44 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
jdphish wrote:
Macrobrachium rosenbergii, or freshwater prawn are limited to water temperatures above 70 degrees F. They are also considered an exotic in most states.

Most commercial catfish feed is made of a mixture of soybeans, corn, wheat, vitamins, and minerals with high protein fish meal derived from the unused parts of processed catfish (yes, recycled).


Actually, fresh water shrimp are allowed as long as you are licensed. I've been toying with getting some to grow out for personal use when I get licensed. They do need a large area with lots of hides as they are very aggressive, just like the crayfish are. I was thinking that the DWC ponds would be a good place as the roots can grow several feet down into the water, depending on the plant choices being grown and this would otherwise be unproductive space.

jdphish,
Catfish feed is made with recycled catfish parts! Soilent green for fishies!!!
Author:  jdphish [ Jun 18th, '10, 09:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
"Catfish feed is made with recycled catfish parts! Soilent green for fishies!!"

tis true, all parts not used for human consumption are rendered into fish meal that is used for the manufacture of catfish feed.
Author:  naturalmagic [ Jun 20th, '10, 01:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
The catfish will be fun to start with and maybe some of them freshwater prawns and mussels, although 70 degrees will be tough.....
Thanks again to everyone for all the advice.

- Will stick with native fish, maybe I shall venture in to more exotic waters later...

- Ahh I don't like the idea of giving my fish commercial feed, I'm sure the quality depends on the brand or price or whatever but if it is based on corn and soybean I feel like we'd be repeating the mistakes of raising cattle on corn. I remember hearing reports about farm raised fish having higher omega 6's lower omega 3's etc, basically sounds exactly like the issue with corn fed beef. Cows were designed by nature to eat grass, they don't eat corn! Neither do fish! Well at least not until we handed it to them. So I was hoping to raise some feeder fish, something like guppies, or little shrimp, or baitfish like Angie suggested, bugs, and whatever vegetation they like and see how that works out. Wondering if anyone has any experience doing this. Angie, with the baitfish did you just introduce them all at once? or were you breeding them in a separate tank and feeding them occasionally?

- Levi, are you referring to the Los Alamitos Race Track? If so that is right down the street from me haha. Scripps is not too far away from me either, I will definitely have to check out what they are doing. Mussels and bass sound yummy, grants sound even cooler haha

- As for the soilent green catfish ewwww, I can't help but think about how mad cow disease came around when we started feeding cattle with beef.

Also, found a pretty nice resource http://aqua.ucdavis.edu/ has a bunch of stuff and a bunch of links, particular to California and while I have not come across anything specific to aquaponics yet it has good info on fish and the like.

Thanks again everyone.
Author:  Yaacov Levi [ Jun 20th, '10, 04:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
yup, right in your back yard,

mussels take a special affinity for gauges, alarms and systems, catfish and koi just want 02 and good water, both doable, stripped bass have been a favorite son of scripps grads but only doable in grad projects with ample grants.

Myself in your area I would go with Koi, the culls can be marketed through oriental food stores in San Diego and the sky is the limit on the show koi, the best of both worlds.

Delevan, is that the race track? Its been a LONG time.
Author:  hydrophilia [ Jun 22nd, '10, 13:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
He there, NM! Welcome aboard!

Catfish are certainly good fish and so are koi, but for food I'd vote for cats. We've tried them, trout, and tilapia and cats are best for us. You might be able to grow tilapia easily. There is a source in SD and without shipping they would be cheap to try.

As far as food goes, we've been sharing food between the cats and trout, so the cats have been getting high-quality feed with no corn or soy. More exp and less environmentally sound, but I feel that AP outweighs that neg. Or you could raise or make your own feed...lots of options there. I've even wondered if one could feed mussels from the coast, in season.

You could raise trout, but only for about six months. They are wonderfully entertaining, best of all fish in that respect.

Have fun!
Author:  Angie [ Jun 23rd, '10, 06:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Southern California Fish Selection
We bought several dozen baitfish and had them delivered right into the tank the catfish were in. They swam in a large school and little by little their numbers dwindles.
In the earthen pond that the catfish are in now, we have mosquito fish but I can't tell if they are eating them or not; the surface is almost completely covered with water hyacinths and there are hundreds of mosquito fish of all sizes. They are very prolific.

If you are concerned about getting enough Omega-3, you can feed your fish earth worms. They eat our table scraps, which is mostly Omega-6 and convert it to Omega-3. You can even feed the worms to chickens and get Omega-3 eggs.

The bug zappers are also a good source of insect protein but you might want to weigh the cost of the electricity.
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