Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Hey all, finally entered the AP world through a Salad Bar system from BYAP and pretty happy so far. It's a ~700L FT with a 200L GB and I was told by staff that it would accommodate 8-10 trout happily. I'm pretty sure I've followed all the instructions given by BYAP staff (I even brought a notebook along and wrote stuff down!!)

I picked up the system on Friday and had tap water in the FT by 11am and pumping continuously from about lunchtime onwards. There was a little bit of hydroton dust in the system which seemed to sort itself out pretty quick and no drama's there.

On Saturday afternoon, I picked up ten trout from Woodvale (despite my better half pointing out that there were three dead trout in the tank) and had them transported in 45 odd minutes in a aerated 44L esky and followed their instructions to acclimatise the trout to the water. The esky temp was 15.5 whilst the FT was 13.7, and pH was 7.4. I was told to add water ager (dechlorinator) which I did to the instructions contained on the bottle. At this point I switched the pump to run 15 min on, 45 min off as per the usual flood & drain cycle.

Woke up at 7am to check up on my trout on Sunday, and could only count 9. Found the dead one and gave him a garden burial, and by 10am there was another fatality. I tested the water again and stats were 7.4pH, 0-0.25ppm ammonia, 0 nitrate & nitrite.

Monday morning saw another dead fish, the addition of 10 marron (knowing my luck it'll be none soon! ) and testing that afternoon gave a pH of 6.4-6.6pH (after I added some hummonia Sunday night), and ammonia was less than 0.5ppm.

Checked the fish later this morning (Tuesday) and found another two dead fish (now 5 deaths! and I can only count four - where's the other one?? ) whilst the marron are quite happy in all the hides, traps and PVC that I've set up for them.

I guess I spent a bit more time analysing the fish today, and today's deaths had a red inflammation/gunk around their gills. I've attached a picture to see if anyone's had this before, and any idea's to fix this? I'm thinking to salt the system but wanted to get people's opinions prior to doing anything drastic.

I haven't fed excessively (less than a teaspoon per day of 3mm BYAP feed), which the trout seemed to eat, spit out then eat later on. The last test this morning gave readings of 7.4ph, 0.25-0.5ppm ammonia and zero nitrites/nitrates.

Idea's anyone??? Is there anything obvious that I've done to the system to do this I'd be really grateful if someone could point it out? Maybe it was a bad batch?!? (Should've listened to the missus haha!!)

Thanks guys

Dean

Hi and welcome to the obsession

Sorry to hear of fish deaths so early on. Switch back to CF if you havnt already and I would throw in 1kg of salt to assist in fish health.

If you have an aerator I would put that in and flat out, if not switching to CF should be fine.

Do you know what the PH of the source water was?

A couple of things from my observation and this is just from my experience. I have been doing "aquaponics" for five years now and I can tell you that chlorine from Perth tap water offgases in 24 hours - therefore water ager/ conditioner is not required. If it was necesary we would sell it, but we try and help people get the most value out of their investment.
Dead fish in a display tank is a red flag - in hindsight there should have been salt in your transport water and then in your system at least at 1ppt per thousand - 1kg per thousand litres.
When a fish dies - if it is on the bottom it has not been dead long - if it floats it has been dead for a while. Sick fish hide, sometimes around the pump area where they may go unnoticed, or hide in a pipe and get stuck, this can contribute to higher ammonia and can cause a domino effect and more fish deaths.
Test water and check readings, add salt, monitor the health of the fish, ask for help if necessary. Refer back to the people who sold you the fish.
Not sure why you added humonia? Fish really do not like big changes so keep it simple - "less is more".
Adding 10 marron is not probably going to help. Not sure how much salt they will tolerate. You need to get salt in there for the sake of the fish as they are the ones that wil aid your plant growth. Can you move the marron elsewhere, keep the bottom of the tank clear and know what is going on. Try not to add anything or change things too much.
In case they also told you to add zeolite - don't.
Please report back so that we can help you overcome this. Feel free to call me if you need.

It's a bit hard to see from the photo, but this could be furunclosis (sp?) a bacterial infection of the blood. If it is, it's nasty and hard to treat and completely eradicate without taking the system apart and sterilising everything. You might first try salting to 3ppt (2.1kg of swimming pool salt in you 700L of water, make sure it is well dissolved in a bucket before adding to the FT as the fish have enough troubles as it is!). I'd also be adding a general antibiotic like "Melafix" or erythromyacin (both available from aquarium suppliers). Add as much aeration as possible (air stones) and/or continuously pump. Take the marron out and keep them separately to the fish (not sure they were required anyway, especially in an uncycled, immature system?)

I'd also be documenting all the deaths and urgently talking with your fish supplier -- if they knowingly sold diseased fish, I'm sure the Fisheries Department (and others) would be interested to know.

Possibly a sign of weak stock or bad condition. How big were the trout.



Normally water ager is useless.



You are probably right there.



What changed to give you such a large drop in PH?



Why did you add humonia when you had fish?



i think you need to read the instructions on how to do the tests.

You probably bought a bad batch, plus you were listening to people with the foggiest idea about how to run an aquaponics system, plus you did other stuff which was not required.

I am sure BYAP would have said to set it up, add the fish, feed sparingly and measure the parameters daily.

I wouldn't be using Melafix in an aquaponic system - it is not safe for human consumption!

I wouldn't jump straight to blaming the fish supplier, depending on the size of their holding tanks and what quantity of fish they've got, while it's not a good look, it's not uncommon to see the odd dead fish... has anyone here ever bought fish from Golden Ponds and NOT seen a floater while there?... and I've seen a floater in the tank of another supplier that comes highly recommended here... it happens.

The problem is you have an over stocked and uncycled system.

Water capacity aside, 200L GB = about 6-7 fish by my calaculations... and that's in a cycled system.

10 Trout and 10 Marron were never going to survive in that system... especially not uncycled.

Sorry mate, just saying it how I see it.

P.S. If your remaining 4 trout show any signs of bad health at all... I'd knock them on the head and start afresh.

Seeing as you've only be going a very short period and you'd only lose a few days, I'd even be tempted to take it one step further and empty the system, sterilise everything with a bleach or peroxide solution, including the clay (maybe peroxide solution in a bath tub), give everything a GOOD rinse off, then start again from scratch... but I'd let the water run through the system for a few days, then salt the water to 1ppt (700gm), then add only 6 or 7 trout and feed very sparingly.

In such a small system I'd actually advise cycling completely before adding the fish, but that would leave you short as far getting your trout up to size before summer... unless you can get a hold of some 200mm models... maybe speak to Gav at Ferguson Springs.

Hi Dean,

I got my trout from Woodvale around 20/4, they were ok for about 2weeks before I got deaths and are currently down to 3 from 15 with 1 of those isolated. So I definitely know how you feel.

In my case it was due to nitrite poisoning due to putting to many in to soon for a new system.

I am treating this as a learning experience. Sorry cant offer any more help other than to say I am in same boat.

Melafix's active constituent is melaleuca oil or tea tree oil and that's in quite small concentration (1 - 1.25%) which is even more dilute after adding to the AP system at the recommended rate of 5ml Melafix per 40L i.e. 0.05 - 0.0625mL tea tree oil per 40L (0.000125 - 0.000156%)

Tea tree oil is added to many toothpastes and mouthwashes at concentrations up to 3% (to the best of my brief research into toothpaste) and although we spit these out, I guess a larger amount of the oil would remain present in the mouth and later ingested than would be present in the flesh of a fish eaten some number of months after exposure to the recommended dose of Melafix? Melaleuca oil is often added to boiling water and the fumes inhaled by people with blocked sinuses due to colds or flu. We also use tea tree oil at full strength as an anti-bacterial solution to apply to cuts, scrapes, sores and lesions. Although this is not ingestion per se, some of the product is absorbed.

The other 99% of Melafix is described as "inert ingredients" and I don't know what their safety records are; maybe these are the dangerous parts? The Melafix paperwork does warn, "Not for human consumption or for the treatment of fish intended for human consumption" as well as other throw away phrases such as the ubiquitous, "This product contains a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer or birth defects or other reproductive harm." (Maybe it ought to be more complete in the anti-litigation defences and warn against traces of nuts, eggs, dairy products, bees and pollen etc too?)

From the Melafix MSDS:
The material has NOT been classified as "harmful by ingestion". This is because of the lack of corroborating animal or human evidence. The material may still be damaging to the health of the individual, following ingestion, especially where pre-existing organ (e.g. liver, kidney) damage is evident. Present definitions of harmful or toxic substances are generally based on doses producing mortality (death) rather than those producing morbidity (disease, illhealth).

I wouldn't have a problem eating from an AP system treated with Melafix (I have in the past; it's probably one of the least toxic things I have been exposed to after a career in the military) but some might and I suppose it does pay to heed manufacturer's warnings... in lieu of due diligence.

Instead of Melafix, I suppose people could try adding diluted amounts of pure tea tree oil?

I have tried to make contact with Professor Riley at the UWA Marshall Centre who is a world leading researcher into tea tree oil to garner his opinion, but he is yet to get back to me. I do note, Professor Riley's group are currently investigating the effects of tea tree oil on biofilm formation. Watch this space.

+1 for Mr Damage's quote

My gut feeling through all of this is that the whole process has been rushed.

When I set my system up I didn't put fish in for a number of weeks. Instead I ran the system, put plants into the GB and added seasol to keep them happy. After four weeks I added a few goldfish to try and get a cycle started. I did not add SP's for around eight weeks after intially putting the water in.

Take your time, let things settle and then slowly build it up. Don't be too conerned about getting trout in time to make it to table for the end of season. Add some silvers instead where at least you know you can take them through summer as well.

I apologize in advance for the sheer honesty of this post.

I second Borby in everything he said, but would like to add to it somewhat.

I can relate to the feeling of wanting to put fish in immediately, especially trout, since they are very good eating and many people's primary focus during the winter, as I gather from reading this forum, and being a newbie myself.

My system has been running from the 29th of April (day of my birthday, I gave myself a good present I believe) and I'm nowhere near adding fish one month down the road.
Why?
Because I like to err on the side of safety and will not cause unnecessary deaths to the fish and unnecessary expenses to my wallet.

What I don't understand, and by now have read many-a-thread in the "active topics" section that tell these tales, why people RUSH things so quickly? Adding that many trout the day after you bought the system is reckless.

This is more of a general question to the experienced members, as to why people would disregard the advice given on the forum.
(It also really bugs me that people only join the forum after things start to go wrong: I mean it's been continuously proven that this is the best AP forum out there and nobody will think ill of you if you ask the question "When should I add fish? And how many?" -- Even though a very simple use of the search function would answer that question immedaitely)

To me it's simply unacceptable that many users add fish to the system the day after they officially started it, when there are literally thousands of comments on the forum saying it's a bad idea.

I can somehow see why fish suppliers would not be unhappy to sell those fish seeing as the market is free and everything, but seriously!

I'm sorry for the little rant but it's simply incomprehensible to me.

Tojo

Whilst I agree with a lot of what has been written in this thread so far, there is plenty of time later to analyse what went wrong, but right now, there are fish and marron which face prolonged, unpleasant deaths and they should be the focus. Maybe the "right" thing to do is to euthanise the lot, Brewers' wash everything and start again, but whilst there is still a reasonable chance for success, I believe effort should be concentrated in that direction?

And that, bunson, is why I apologized in advance

I have no advice whatsoever for the OP about trout and marron, thus have not expressed anything in that direction. You are however correct in saying that they, and the plants, should be the main focus now.

You will have problems cycling your system with cold water temperatures, it could take 2 - 3 months.

I would continue and if all the trout die, add some goldfish to cycle the system, they are hardy and tolerate bad water conditions well.

I too bought my trout from Woodvale and after 1 week started seeing the the trout dying.
I have only 2 left from 12 that i started with.
The system is a single IBC on a timer 15/45 300L grow bed 650L fish tank.
Fishless Cycled for 1 months with water and some media from my smaller blue barrel system to jump start it, All readings looked normal the whole time.

Fish stopped feeding and upon finding the first dead fish which looked like it had the same red marks around its gills and a few of them had white fluffy 'mold' and what looked like sores on their bodies.
I ended up adding just over 1 kg of salt, running the pump CF with 3 air stones (BYAP battery back up unit and small aquarium bubbler)
Lost 1 or 2 a day that week but have managed to keep the last 2 alive for about a week now. have not noticed any markings on them and have gone back to the timer.
The 2 that are left seem to be interested in food again now so feeding very sparingly only once a day.
I hope that the deaths where caused by overfeeding and stressed fish, from my over excitement at watching the trout feed compared to the sleepy little silvers and gold fish i have in the small system I guess i could have brought this on by myself.
I will be visiting Woodvale this week to ask a few questions and see if they are still selling trout.