Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Disagree Gotfish in the sense that....

Guppies (and some other fish i.e. goldies, koi etc) are possibly remarkable tough, resiliant critters which seem able to tolerate water quality parameters that would either kill most other freshwater fish or cause possible health risks/transferences on there own...

I don't believe that you intend eating your "guppies"

IMHO, copper will have a cumulative effect in the flesh of freshwater fish intended for human consumption.... just as other "heavy" metals have proven to be....

As the high order predator at the end of the food chain, we will injest those concentrated levels.... and will similarly accumulate and concentrate them.... to the point of possible health risks... and from what I've read continual exposure to high levels of copper are toxic to humans...

Some quick googling of "copper toxicity in humans returns (second hit)









And this site lists concerns ... http://pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemica ... Id=PC33553


Will one fish kill or cause illness... ?? .... two.... ??? ..... one a week....?? unknown, but concerns have been raised.

Similarly, studies do suggest that freshwater fish (in particular) have a set lethal tolerance to copper absorbtion....

I'll leave you to follow through some of these "google" links...

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... ty+in+fish

There's even suggestion that there is a lethal level in regard to plants... 60-150 ppm

http://www.incowatch.ca/content/4-2%20T ... htm#Copper

Herein lies the problem I think John.... the acidic nature/tendancy of an AP system will dissolve the copper pipes into solution... possibly quite rapidly....

Given the reports above that suggest that copper can be harmful even in normal tap water pipes at usually pH 7.0....

Then again I think the potential for harmful affects are magnified greatly in an AP system where AP water comes in contact with copper...

Remember... copper is a relatively "soft" metal and dissolves in acids readily... and oxidises in air at the sniff of a breeze....

As a reactive oxidiser, it can also have a catalytic type effect on other metals such as zinc...

All accumulating in the fish you intend to eat .... maybe it wont kill them (IMHO.. it will), maybe it wont kill you if you eat them.... maybe not straight away anyway.

So it would probably be a good idea to get a copper test kit to see if there is an increase in the copper amount in the water after running through the collector for a while.

It is improtant to note that copper and zinc are both more dangerous to fish and humans when the liquid involved in more acidic. The two metals are also more dangerous in conjunction with eachother at high levels.

How dangerous copper is in a system is a hot debate topic but another side of things to think about. If you use any salt in your system or your pH tends to drop, your copper might not last too long.

It might be worth while to think about ways you could store the heat from the day to use at night and hence using some form of heat exchanger to isolate your system from the dangerous metals could have double benefits.

Good luck with the testing.

No, I don't plan to eat the Guppies directly. They go to the Perch. If the collector proves to be viable as a stand alone fish water heater it will end up being used for the Tilapia and/or perhaps the Perch. Some Tilapia will go to the Perch, some to plate.
The use of the collector if it proves to be viable as a direct heater for the Perch would be to get an earlier egg drop.
If the Guppies do survive I plan to test it on the Gold Fish then a few Bull Heads. The last will be the Tilapia and I'll assume if those four fish survive then its safe for the Perch. I will use only the one tank, (presently in use as a test of the collector) so that any and all copper build up will be present in that tank as the fish are swapped out. This should rapidly show any adverse side effects on the fish, hopefully.
I do not think I'll have a problem with the copper in reguards to the fish water tending towards acidic. My ph stays around 7.8 or higher. I used too, in the beginning, chase ph but came to the conclusion that I would be better off just letting the system stay where it wants I try to adjust myself to it rather then the other way around.
I do not doubt the adverse affects of copper.
I think the Guppies will be a very good indicator of water quality, as live breeders (dropping kids once a month). They will give three levels of results. 1. Die. 2. Live, but not birth. 3. Live and breed.
With the third being the true goal. I would once again, think that would prove the set up safe for further inclusion into the people food chain.
Now to read thru some of the links posted and see if any have info on fish and copper accumuliation.

This looks promising as my water is hard as a brick.
http://www.rci.com.au/en/products/coptrol/copaqua1.pdf%20-
Good recommendations but I won't be getting a copper test kit other then the fishies. I only test my systems rarely, the Perch system never changes, the others are solid with the exception of off the chart numbers because of no plants.
I have heat exchangers but with this small collector I expect to much loss in the heat transfer for it to be of any use other then direct heating. It seems to produce approx 300 btu a day.

Lovely, friendly, most kind Mods. Could you edit the above post to say 300 btu vice 30 btu? I know you can. I spose the question should be will you. Cider's on me if it comes to pass.

My Tom, mistakenly planted on the wrong side of the grow bed is growing like mad and needed a trim. I thought mmmm let me stick the trimmed parts in syphon and see what happens. Hoping for them to root of course. They will now become dirt Toms, I see a whole forest of these before the snows of a true winter once again arrive on my door step.
I love AP!

I was concerned about copper because I have Cu pipes, so I asked the guy at the fish store (who is fairly knowledgeable, but knows nothing about AP).

He said that the copper test I could buy at the store would not be able to detect the levels that would come off a copper pipe. That those tests were designed for seeing if copper medications had been flushed from the system sufficiently.

He also sold me a filter (whose name I now can't remember) which sponged up copper and ammonia, and other nasties. He said it would easily take out whatever copper I got from my pipes. The filter did take out ammonia, but I didn't see it taking out copper (It changes colors when exposed to various things.)

I sure wish I could remember what that was called. OTOH, maybe I was sold a bill of goods, and the filter just randomly changes colors in water.

Copper in a household system is different to ap in the house it passes once only, In ap its constantley passing picking up a little bit more each time

Interestingly , I have seen MANY times that the use of Seasol and / or Charlie carp fertilisers have been recommended here.
They both contain copper,, once again it is the LEVEL of copper that is important.
Back-ground radiation is a fact of life on this planet ,, but being near a nuclear explosion is not such a good idea.

me! me! me!

An interesting paper that may change a few preconceptions?

COPPER TOXICITY AND METALLOTHIONEIN INDUCTION IN FISH: EFFECT OF WATER TEMPERATURE AND PH

From the abstract:

"Copper accumulation in the liver of copper exposed fish was greater at lower temperature and pH 8.0. MT concentration in the liver was higher in fish exposed to copper at 30oC. Copper accumulation is related to copper toxicity and the water pH is a determinant factor in this process. MT concentration in the liver seems to depend on water temperature rather than copper concentration in water."

Basically suggesting that Copper uptake is higher at pH 8 than at pH 4.5 and a higher temperature increases metabolism hence increases copper detoxification...

I like a little bit of copper in my diet. How much is too much, I have no clue...

Thanks J, yer the bestest!

Very interesting article Myles... thanks for that, have only had the time to skim it...but have bookmarked it for reference.

Seasol has milligrams of copper in it chappo - that collector probably has over a 1/2 a kilo.

I am not saying it is bad in the correct doses, but putting solid copper into an AP system is just crazy. It WILL dissolve, even at PH 7.8, and it WILL poisen your fish - may not kill them, but you WILL injest more than the recommended amount of copper if you eat said fish.

Each to their own, but I dont see the point of growing awesome, toxin free vegetables, to go and eat poisened fish?

Especialy when it has been pointed out numerous times by Rupe, who has done a lot of research regarding copper badness in AP, and gave heaps of links.

always good for abite,,,,love to take you fishing OBO.