Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I am enjoying this discussion...

I would love to make a few points myself but feel I probably need to learn and read more first.

However, instead I would like to ask a question...

Do any of you think that perhaps 'large commercial aquaponics systems' would be far more profitable/beneficial in certain types of environments or situations? By this I mean looking at the strong points of aquaponics like very little water use and the ability to provide both fish, vegetables and fruit in a very small footprint. Perhaps this would make it ideal in certain desert/arid regions where the shipping and water costs are very high (say mining areas or long term millitary operations) especially if some sort of turn key container system could be provided that is portable/removeable? I know that container system does not sound large but when dealing with millitary and mining contracts the profit margins can be larger than in the domestic/farmers market area... or perhaps I am mistaken

The aim rather than definition that is useful to me is:

Is the (cost of production plus the cost of processing plus the cost of sale)/kg less than the price/kg?

If yes then the production via AP may be viable, ie it is possible that it be viable. In no then the business may be viable but only with revenue from other sources.

A good analogy would be an AQ business based around you catching your own fish. The price at which they sell the fish may be at or below cost but they make their profit on rod hire, gate price, coffee, etc.

There is nothing inherently wrong with that approach but it does not interest me because I haven't demonstrated conclusively (to my satisfaction at least) that it is possible that the total TCOGS/kg is less than the sale price/kg.

I believe that it can be. When I have actually done it then I will offer systems for sale. Until that point I do not believe that I could offer systems for sale in good faith. Other operations may have greater confidence in there apparently untested systems than I and therefore can sell there systems in good faith.

I will not sell a system until I can show someone one that works and is capable of making money on its own. ie the TCOGS/kg will be less than than the price/kg by a sufficient margin that the whole exercise is worth considering.

Me, yes. I find it odd that there are so many people on this forum that extol the virtues of AP in their backyard but then contend that commercial AP is not viable. Farming in your backyard is never going to be cheaper than farming commercially. Which isn't to say that it isn't worthwhile doing just that it is not cheaper.

I believe that commercial AP will make up a significant proportion of agricultural production in the future but no one has demonstrated that it can be done yet. Hydro was in the same boat several decades ago and look at that industry now.

In my opinion self contained container based systems (container has a fish tank and growing area incorporated into a container) can only be profitable in high margin markets because even if you have them installed in large numbers their design is such to limit many of the economies of scale that are possible in a large systems.

It may be possible to build a system using containers as components but there are better materials available. Better materials that would be more productive, cheaper and flat pack inside a container.

Not to sound like a hippie here (nothing wrong with being a hippie I am just to bald for it).... but perhaps Aquaponics will be far more competitive against the current agri business models in the future if all the true costs of the existing industry are taken into account. The aquaculture industry currently releases a lot of polluted water doesnt it? soil farming requires a lot of fertilizers, causes environmental damage, requires pesticides, GM crops etc and government subsidies/bail outs.. fishing in the ocean is depleting fish stocks making it less viable and more costly as more fuel is spent to travel further for less. Perhaps if or when these true costs are added to those industries then Aquaponics may compare more favorably.. not that aquaponics isn't without it's need for water, electricity, fish feed (from by catch) and materials but it would certainly be a more interesting and level playing field.

Well I don't know how much I'm really able to compete. I mean it isn't possible for me to sell a pound of lettuce for the same price as the wholesale machine harvested lettuce.

I have to sell to niche markets and take full advantage of the LOCAL food movement. AND I have to take advantage of the fact that aquaponic farming means I can grow some crops into seasons where the dirt gardeners have to give up.

The whole thing with subsidies and all that, those are for commodities as far as I know and I have absolutely no intention of trying to compete growing ANY commodity crops since that brings in it's whole extra pile of regulation and paperwork that is ONLY reasonable if you are a giant producer.

Keep in mind that I HAVE NOT MADE IT YET. And the real problem with the little start ups is that it takes a LOT of time to reach the Profitable stage in any farming system and you have to some how remain afloat during that start up period. Even once an aquaponic operation is "profitable" it can sometimes be a question of is it profitable enough to be a sole source of income.

An example. My lufa growing a couple summers ago at the old house was what I might call very profitable but even though the lufa were profitable for what I put into growing and cleaning them, that definitely was not enough to support me all on it's own and even if it was reasonable to grow enough Lufa that I could make my living off it, I don't think I could sell that much lufa, the market for them around here just isn't that big.

We also have other farm things going on like chickens, ducks, soil gardens, as well as nursery plants, aquatic plants, mosquito fish, bluegill, and catfish.

I'm still learning what methods work best for which crops and I still need to work on my marketing and sales.

I am definitely one of the first people to say think twice before going nuts and buying the farm.

As to aquaponics being more viable commercially and on small scale in certain locations/markets/climates etc...... Definitely yes. I don't know if it would count as "commercial" in the eyes of those who believe commercial growing only counts when it is on the scale of acres or hectares selling only wholesale and making big returns for investors but I do know people on Islands (no I'm Not counting HI at the moment) who are depending on their aquaponic farm as their sole source of income and they are not selling trainings or equipment. Islands are good markets for growing/selling local food.

I imagine it must be difficult to strike the right balance between diversifying your product enough to not rely on your income from one thing like lettuce (just an example) and the extra work of micromanaging all the different products and the lack efficiency that could/does occur to some degree when diversifying?

Yes, that is a better example than the ones I gave... huge transport costs from outside and not a huge population that still wants variety and will receive better quality from locally grown aquaponics because of decreased time in transit

I agree with you TCL, I'm in your situation more or less, we have just started marketing a couple of month ago and the response it has been exceeding my expectations.

We are still finishing to build the second green house, 1000 nft holes and the remaining 3 FT plus the processing unit and market presentation.

So far 9 months have gone and we have just managed to start generating some cash.

Fish will be 2 more months to harvest and like you we are selling other farm produce;
Duck eggs, honey, soft fruit and hard veg, preserve, natural soaps, ready to eat gourmet food of any kind(90% of ingredient generated on the farm)

From the figure generated in our business plan it was clear that by year one no sale would have been made and we account for that beforehand, by year two the investment should be recovered and then we have estimated we could run the operation with 25% of total revenue.

Based upon the amount of forecasted sale and generated profit I can call it a job for which I was aspiring and that generate a good income considering my cost of living.

The way you are marketing your products reminds me of an example of another recent company Tesla (the electirc car company) who has more recently made good headway into the motor vehicle industry.. they too entered into the higher sports/luxury end and now are making mid priced sedans and seem to be working their way down towards the larger average domestic market. This seems like the most likely path for aquaponics too.

Stuart I was not having a go at you, in fact from memory I tried to be positive on your thread. I was just trying to point out the bureaucratic hurdles someone has to face to even get the system under construction:)

The American military many years ago had roll out vege production systems, using layflats and demountable greenhouses, they used a hydroponic model.

If a commercial model is to exist (on a small scale) it requires a change of attitude in those entrenched in the current backyard model. The ft is for fish, the gb is to grow plants and remove nitrates etc, a seperate biofilter/filter is to do the biofiltration. They don't have to work on one continuous loop nor rely on each other 24/7. There are a number of reasons for this but this is only imho.

Yep.... the "flawed media" concept.. is exactly that....

To have any control over both, or either of your growing components... fish and plants.... you need to be able to control them....both, or either...

And as I've always said... media bed systems just don't scale anyway... in a commercial sense...

Yes it would but the objective reality is that those costs are often not factored into the costs of current production systems. AP needs to compete as things are not as they should be.

Generally I like my definitions. My definition takes into account many of the things that you are talking about. TCOGS/kg gives you how much it costs to produce, process and sell a kg of produce. If you can sell it for more say in Kalgoorlie than you can in Melbourne then the maximum amount the TCOGS/kg can be in Kalgoorlie is much more than in Melbourne and yet still make a profit.

A small operation (eg TCL) will have a higher cost of production, a higher cost of processing and a higher cost of sale per kg than a large scale system (hectare or more). However, a smaller system directly marketing their produce to a niche market will get a high price/kg. The business case is driven by the balance of these two numbers. For some products and markets small scale production may work in other cases it just won't.

For example there is an AQ operation in Tasmania that only produces 15t of salmon per year. Industry experience would say that that scale of production is not profitable and it wouldn't be if they were just selling fish. However, because they are value adding their fish and getting a premium on their brand they are doing rather well.

Small scale production doesn't interest me in the long term because it will not make a big difference to the way agriculture utilises water. Yes I want to make money but I could do that, and have, in many other spheres. I am passionate about the prospects of large scale commercial AP because of the benefits to the environment and humanity.

Didn't think you were I was just responding to the comments.

I think subsidies are a large part of our issue. I believe we should stop subsidizing farming, and put that money into education. The worlds population is as large as it is because we already grow too much food. Sadly it is poor quality food. Subsidies keep it that way. The small farmer in Mexico can not grow his corn for how little it costs from the US, so he closes his farm and finds a new job. The corn that he was growing was of vastly higher quality than the franken-corn that out competes him. Then he needs to find a job. Where? Probably at Tyson, where they prefer to bus in illegal immigrants so labor disputes can be resolved with a quick phone call to immigration. Illegal immigrants are not our nations "problem," it is the businesses that keep bussing them in so they can have a cheap labour pool with no recourse from abuse by said business.

Don't get me started...