Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

Well, I have lost nearly 200 Silver Perch fingerlings over the last 5 months, but they only die a few at a time, so its never really a big HSM sort of thing.

Our indoor aquarium gets the same foam sort of thing happening, if the water is not changed often enough, and it also happened when we first started the aquarium, before the bacteria got established. Maybe you dont have enough good bacteria?

If I cause some fish deaths by something that is my fault (not following pipe sizeing guidelines etc) I wont usually post about it in my thread, but if I see someone else doing the same thing wrong - I try to point them in the right direction.

You should have a nice stable system by the time you get all these fish problems sorted.

I've noticed that the search function on the forum tends to disappoint. Some people have noted more success using an outside search engine (like google or something) to search this site and having better luck finding what they are searching for.

Anyway, I've read many threads and you are not the only one having issues with fish die offs. Some threads follow closely the saga of death and dismay while others just make quick mention of it and gloss right past. While others, the poster gets really busy and 8 months or so later we get the quick mention of a major die off due to one problem or another and the thread picks back up after the break so to speak.

Thank you for documenting your situation in such detail, I'm sure your experiences will help others in the future.

I agree with TCL. Documenting your saga will 1) let other know they are not alone, 2) help others with ideas for solutions, and 3) put the fear of infection into all the careless "ahhh, that won't happen to me" folks and get them to do some careful isolation, treatment, and observation with new fish. I know your experience (and my minor troubles) is really waking me up.

Thanks for keeping us in the loop. Good luck.

From what I've read, these fish are all but dead, in such advanced stages, there is no stopping the death cycle, especially when using a holistic all natural approach to treatment.

Yes, I read about this also, seems they can't decide where Oodinium/Velvet Skin/Gold Rust Skin Disease actually derives. Some say it's a free-swim, 3 stage parasite and some say it's an Algae, hence the FT darkening treatment. (more mystery)



Thanks Rupe, no man, I don't mean pump kills, pipe stuff, flooding or brown blood from over feeding. I mean common, well known Diseases in fish husbandry.

I'm sorry I didn't mean to point any fingers, just trying point out, as TCL and hydrophilia have eluded, detailed data of the most common of fish ailments aren't easily found here, due to something or another... that's all.

As to a proper a quarantine... 5 weeks? Who's got that? That's damn near a sub-system and with a large fish-load...

I understand things move fast. Death can be, and often is, rapid with no time for diagnoses. Forget diagnoses, the forget treatment... How about the symptoms? Doesn't anyone else find this strange, for a well established BBS community of many years now? It's just odd, trust me!

Again, I am sorry for being so forward, as only, a "new guy". I'm just frustrated with all the money, time, energy and attention I've spent these past 3 months... to find myself in a death cycle of which, there is almost no chance of extrication.

Okay, No dead fish today. If the pattern continues, I will have 2-3 days before any more die. This is the second day, of the 9 day treatment.

I know, numbers are Zero, as no food for at least 3 days!

The fish did feed, I gave them as much as they would consume over 15mins. they're sick so it was only 70grams. With the Quinine Sulfate circulating the GBs, I hope this will be enough to show a possible damage to the +Bacteria. If someone already knows that Quinine Sulfate may kill Beneficial Bacteria, I will at least have a chance confirm or deny that here.

thanks for not being pissed at me; as sometimes, I am too willing to share!

I was able to have a PM feeding of 80grams added to Today's AM feeding, that's a total of 150grams.

This should be enough move the beds into showing some conversion or not.
We'll know by tomorrow night.

If it's a serious spike. I'm guessing major damage was done to the +Bacteria.

If it is only a small showing, then I'm guessing moderate, to no damage done to +Bacteria as my feeding had fallen off over this last 10 days. From a high daily feeding of 160 grams done with Bi-feedings AM/PM all the way down to 80 - 100gram Bi-feedings daily. So I guess it may be a tad slow converting anyway based on the reduced feeding.

thanks all

My first system had fish disease problems and I lost almost all of them. I took some good photos of the symptoms, but the cause was just "water quality & fluctuations" (bad design, would have to top up the system which would change pH, salinity, temperature, hardness etc etc).

Have you thought about having a biofilter that isn't the main beds? Kind of the reverse of what Sleepe said - instead of saving a handful of gravel from your system and running the water through the beds, why not take a handful of your colonised rocks, chuck it in another receptical and run it through that? Or maybe just run it through one bed? Just to minimize the damage to the bacteria. If you have a whole bed of rocks full of bacteria, it won't take long for it to recolonise the whole lot.

Thanks, gemmell, another good Idea. I thought on using my store bought supplemental filter last week, as i planned for these treatments. However, I have pulled it out of service and staged it as an emergency ammonia remover only. It will convert nothing, it is clean and not colonized. Maybe I don't understand what you are trying to say?

NO DEATH, a pattern. NOTE: I'm noticing less fish alone and on the bottom. many were banished or in a self imposed exile, away from the others. (this seems a good sign)
todays colors AM

These may be somewhat skewed as we had more rain, a 3 hour down pour last night. This added 2-3" or 50 -75mm to the tank.

Since this is not an Aquarium and there are no contingencies for sudden & unexpected water increases; I will just move on to part 2 of the 3 day treatments. Since last night was the last leg of part one, I don't think much of the dose was diluted, if it was diluted, it was only for the last few hours of that leg.

So for part 2- days 4-6 of the regime; I will drain, 25% as directed. plus the additional 2 or 3" caused by the rain. This will bring water levels back in line with my planed dosage. again re-applying the QS at .5 grams per !0gals or 38L

Here are some pics... for the hell of it (i find it calming, thanks)
http://picasaweb.google.com/sdismang/72908/photo#s5228438318078931650

Also, another TY video ( I promise, no bitching lol, actually only 1 spoken word: thanks)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6yygCgaY60

all is as expected... Ohm, ohm...

thanks

Hi:
In my first system I had 60 goldfish die out over a month or two, never was sure of the cause, but there were several possibilities including using rain water off of the asphalt shingle roof (zinc and maybe other nasty chemicals in it), adding a trace mineral spray to the water that had copper and other metals in it that may have hurt the fish, bouncing the pH around by adding a lot of cruched oyster shells and dust, and the natural cooling of the weather as we went into October. In my current system I have had occasional fish deaths, which I am guessing were happening when the water temperature went down. The latest ones I think are because the fish are aggressive to each other since the FT is not at full occupancy (there is a lot of splashing as they chase and boss each other around). Nowadays I just make sure to keep the temps as stable as possible and keep the water moving and knock on wood that has worked OK. If all my fish started dying again I'm not sure I could ever be sure of the reason, except to pay to have them examined by an expert under a microscope.

Are there any agrichemicals being sprayed around you that may have drifted into the water?

Doug Basberg lost his catfish in his concrete tank, chalked that up to leaching from the concrete and/or water quality issues (solids buildup on the bottom). I guess catfish are susceptible to more disease than scaled fish?

Good luck Don I hope the situation improves...

Don't bag me,,I might cry,,,but if Don seems to think the "floc" be it dead algae or whatever ,is responsible for the deaths,,,then perhaps a simple protein skimmer might alleviate those worries,,I realise they are not normally used in AP or freshwater fish,,,BUT maybe it can help until the "floc" source or other problem is found.

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/diyski ... _Plans.htm

That is not my contention, at all Chappo.

I was simply stating the description of what I noticed as one physical manifestation of the parasitic free swim cycle. It never lasts more than a few hours each time, every 3 - 5 days, just before and after death. There is no question in my mind, what is going on, there is no mystery here, accept...

Will Quinine Sulfate kill/slow +Bactreia?

...and I'm still waiting or the beds have not been harmed

Numbers/Colors this evening



I would feel better, If it showed just a trace of Nitrite
maybe tomorrow's readings will definitive

thanks

Sorry Don for my miss-interpretation.

sheesh,,there are much better AP knowledgable brains working on this than mine,,so perhaps I watch/ listen/learn and talk less on this one.

No I'm pretty sure of that... not this high. Maybe Chem-trails LOL Plus that be a sudden death scenario.

thanks

no worries mate, it's tough to decipher my babbleings, even when I go back and read it sometimes, " ...what hell did I mean to say here..." lol

Thanks

"Will Quinine Sulfate kill/slow +Bactreia? "

After searching all over I give in. The only references I could get was the additions to marine tanks with only the invertebrates being bumped off. As marine tanks are usually a little more sensitive to chemicals I would say a hesitant no (time will tell on this I supose).
Your nitrates are fairly high and while healthy fish can handle it weakened fish are not so happy. The water changes will help but since you are still running the GB's can you get some more plants in?
Don't request Nitrites they are an absoloute bugger on weakened fish
Darkening the FT will help (providing it is velvet) evidently the organisms contain chloroplasts (freshwater version) use light as an energy source while attached to the fish (which is why there a green/yellow colour) low or lack of light will weaken them, allowing the quinine to do its job more effectively.

Sleepe as I've said, these fish display many different symptoms, physical & behavioral.

Physical:
The appearance of salt or sugar like bumps over the skin, like they've been sprinkled.
I understand this to be Ich

The appearance of a Gold like rust color over the entire fish, a total hue color change.
I understand this to be Oodinium or Gold/Rust Disease also know as Velvet Skin
External Parasite or Algae ? "Who cares, it sucks", has been the general take on it.

The appearance of a lesion on the head of a fish, "Hole in the head"
I understands this to be, "Hole in the head".( lol that's what they call it)

The appearance of little red marks can be Lice or entry points for Internal Parasites.

The Appearance Gill Fluks (like lice in the gills) small grayish-brown parasites on the gills.

The appearance of large milky white patches and an increase of slime coat, turning bloody where milky patches once were.
Costia AND/OR Chilodonella (no nice names)

Many of these things don't have a physical manifestations, until the END, only behavioral. One of these I've seen, is Ram's Disease or (Whirl, Whirling Disease). Most often associated with the Internal Intestinal Flat Worm Parasite (see Video). Hole in the head can also cause this (I have seen) but it can be a symptom of advanced stages of most anything, as it effects the the equilibrium of the fish causing it to swim strange.

One of the 1st. signs something is wrong is the Banishment or self-imposed exile of some fish. It appears healthy fish try avoid the sick ones. They will move away from the sick fish after my scare is over. The sick fish will just sit, alone on the bottom until it can no longer hold itself in that position. death is soon to follow. In my tank, the pump will collect it for me.

I have a Book, Scalpel & a Microscope. As these fish continue to die off, I will freeze them and dissect them this winter, when I have more down time.

I have looked into some AP workshop/ training/schools in the mid-west/south... trying and failing on your own, is still a much much cheaper way to go. I priced some as 21,000US$ for 4 weeks down to 7,000US$ for 10days of work/training.

I'm way ahead of the game and I thank you all, for it.

A drum roll please...

Yes, we have conversion!


All is good,

thanks