Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

damn edit:

..."TCL has said, catfish really DON'T well in heavy salt.

See the company you mentioned has a quinine sulphate treatment recommended for "resistant" strains of Ich... and "scaleless" fish.... like catfish...

http://www.nationalfishpharm.com/products4.html

Presume this is the one you're getting Don??

Another way of treating Ich is using Formalin.... but it's nasty shit.... and requires extreme care in handling and use.... both for the fish and the operator....

Use of Formalin is not to be undertaken haphazardly, contrary to instructions, without appropriate safety equipment...... probably not for use by the average joe-blow AP'er...

Here's a very simple precise on Ich, why, lifecycle, treatment .... http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?articleid=2421

got'm salted. and the heat on; maybe I can keep it warm enough over night, to them jacked-in tomorrow mid-day.

Rupe, yes Sir to quinine sulphate: "resistant" strains of Ich... and "scaleless" fish.... like catfish...


and then, reading more... "No, there is Another Luke"
It could be, and/or Oodinium also (gold dust disease) is the same cycle like parasite operating in the same fashion. Not as common in freshwater as salt. This is actually closer in description to anything else I read, as no one seems to have a clear picture. The same crystal pus packets but more Yellowish, taking on a gold shine. This is a more precise description. No harm no foul, cuz quinine sulphate also treats it.

Does anyone know... Do these pictures depict my self-diagnose of Ich and or Oodinium together? from the pictures, what do you learned fish folks think it is?










thanks,

Ich is usually more conentrated in one spot isnt it?

Yeah, "No" can't be... as in the, "free swim stage" the parasite attaches itself anywhere on the host it can find.

Fish started feeding again yesterday. They may have fed more but I left them wanting, feeding only 40grams once in the PM.

It seems controlled, losses were 22 fish; adding only salt to the main tank 3tpp, as I could not reach high enough temps for a sustained cycle in a sick tank. The addition of the Immune Plus Bacteria from Tropical Science may have made water conditions improve. The larger volume tank retains the heat much better than the smaller hasty tanks i set-up.

The fish are in a weakened state and any more rain could send them over the top again. This is tough. At cooler temps this stuff, and I say it like that, because these fish have displayed all kind of symptoms, pop-eye, whirl, gold dust, ich, can hibernate on plants also and i can't keep the beds warm throughout the nights. This means simple separation is not going to work, as i must keep water in the beds.

i'm torn, even tho they say the Quinine won't hurt fish or plants... what the +bacteria? I'll bet it kills it and i will have to cycle all over again. they won't speak to me because i'm not a dealer/wholeseller. They say, ask my pet store consultant. ha no one carries their shit around here for 1,000 miles.

I've been searching... and the FDA lets these aquaculture fish farms dump all kinds of drugs, antibiotic and pure poisons on their fish. wow, it ain't pretty! Don't go read about it, you'll never want to eat farmed raised fish again.

Better that, "They" just kill you, slowly over time, as you have been living way too long for the planet to sustain you. It's Population Control, plain and simple.

test numbers are fine.

The Quinine Sulfate arrived today. Damage to the +Bacteria or not, I have to do something.

Their dosage says 1/4 tsp per 10 gal. I packed this tightly in the spoon... it weighed 0.5grams. It's about the consistency of "All Purpose Flour".

I have, over the last week, let the level drop to around half, plants tend to drink more when nutrients drop-off. I'm calling it 500 gals.

The Quinine Sulfate regiment is, dose for 3 days, do a 25% water change at the end of the 3rd. day. Then repeat for another 3 days, again another 25% water change at the end of the 3rd day (now 6th day of the regime) and repeat once more for a total of 9 days. Then they say, " I CAN add a carbon filter, to remove it from the system. I wonder does this mean I can leave it in??? Who knows!

I will stop feeding today and start the treatment tomorrow, just in case the Quinine kills the +Bacteria. No need to compound things.

I will treat and watch closely. If the fish show any adverse signs, I will quickly drop the water and replace it at 25-50%. Wait a day and re-apply a weaker treatment.

The fish have stopped dying, however I have 5 or 6 whirling, here is a video of one of them, I can't edit... so it's 3mins. of me bitching... please excuse this, and see the gold/rust dust of Oodinium or Velvet Skin. http://www.youtube.com/v/fr1RNeewdCY (it should be up soon, i just uploaded it).

Here is a pretty good example/explanation of it. http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/velvet.htm

I post these woes in a hope to help others quickly determine their issues and to ascertain whether or not Quinine Sulfate is safe for fish, plants and +Bacteria. If it kills them all, you will know what not to do!

thanks

this one is not full screen, you should be able see more clearly, sorry!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr1RNeewdCY

We eagerly await news of your results as you get them. You have just had all sorts of trouble with your poor fish. Should be about time for some good luck huh?

Feel for you Don, that fish is certainly not enjoying himself - hope you get the problem fixed real soon

Thanks for the moral support folks.

4 more dead today, now 26. Every time I think they responded positively to the salt or salt dip/bath- a day or two later, more will die.

I'm starting to seeing a pattern, every 3 to 5 days, I see the top of the water looks foamy or the water surface tension increases- aeration bubbles are huge and take longer to pop, floating around the pool multiple times moved by the current. Then, I will lose 2 or 3 fish a day, for the next two or three days.

If there is a prefect time for dead fish, this might be it.

I added the Quinine Sulfate way before Sun up, (day 1 of the treatment). I wanted to circulate as much of the tank as I could, without the beds. Hopefully this may break or slow this pattern; if it is a pattern. Of course it may be too late to prevent this, current "round of death" but I'm really just looking for any changes.

The Quinine Sulfate MUST be/IS PH Neutral. After circulating for 6.5 hours the PH is still a rock solid, 7.5 and the shelled GBs had nothing to do with it. (This is good news NOTE:)

The GBs shunted, I will leave them off until the plants look like they are going to burn-up... I may have caught a break on the sun today...

Yeah right, MORE rain! How can I keep a steady dosage going, when it's raining buckets.

It seems the local weatherman is out to get me lol. These people would know what a weather-head looked like if it was taking down their own house. Do you know why they call them Smoky Mountains? lol

So it's indoor temp controlled tanks and green-housed GBs; any thing else and you become a victim. Wisest maybe to capture a mountain creek I may have to pull a "Rupe", and go talk to some of my farmer buddies around here, then work a deal.

Okay, I know... Quinine Sulfate is PH Neutral. Today's Numbers are 0, 0 and 40ish-50
Today, I need clouds and NO rain. So far so good!
Time to go babysit.
thanks,

Don,
Just a thought: you say you are not trying to treat the growbeds, but are worried you may need to run water through and thus wipe the bacteria out. Maybe you could save a couple handfuls of sludgy gravel (may be in fridge?) to inoculate your beds. If needed, it will save a lot of time. On the downside: if there is a reservoir of disease in there you are also reinoculating that....
Good luck!

Excellent idea, thank you hydrophilia.

As to the grow beds... not really trying to avoid it, as Quinine in the beds is inevitable but just delay any filtration to maximize the kill rate of the free swim cycle in the tank.

Today was a good day, weather wise. we reached temps of over 98F/38C with heavy cloud cover, sweaty... but great for the swim cycle. It has only just now started to rain but had to, it was so hot; like Florida raining everyday at 4 or 5 in the afternoon, well the Plants will get a drink.

After 15hours of babysitting, i can see no adverse affects on the fish the Quinine Sulfate. That's .5grams per 38/L

Like I said, it's inevitable, at some point I will have to flood the beds. Since my readings were zero; how will I know if there has been any damage to the +Bacteria? So why prolonging it?

If the fish will eat tomorrow, I will feed them a small feeding and watch. This entire week is forecast as in the high 30's. That's heep, big good chi!

thanks

If it is ich then it can't live without the fish (hosts to continue its life cycle) for more than 2 days (4 to be super safe). If you were able to move the fish into a seperate hospital tank then you could treat them out of the system and your AP system would be ich free naturally. Then you would reitroduce the treated fish and dump the the medicinal water. Moving the fish would cause stress but its up to you...

This means you need to buy or find a large container for the remaining fish and an airstone. Don't know if you have the cash but you could buy a 300 gallon rubbermaid tank and use it afterwards for fingerlings/sump/growbed/next system.

Don

Foaming of the water is usually a sign of high dissolved organic compounds. Have you checked everywhere for something rotting in the system? Quinine is one of the few things effective against velvet but the fish look in a fairly advanced state, fingers crossed.
Read somewhere they were trialing hydrogen peroxide against parasites, highly oxydising and is likely to kill bacteria too. Also treatment levels have to be spot on or dead fish.
Other thing was darkening the FT but don't know whether this is an old wives tale.

Sleepe, thank you so much, I think you have confirmed my thoughts on this, "cycling of death". If these "highly dissolved organic compounds" can be derived from dead algae?

Then maybe, but if you are saying, rotting flesh or something dead, other then Algae, then "No". The tank is clean as a pin (after I've pulled out the dead ones, daily!??). The pump is an absolute torrent; if you're not in complete control, you'll be a "pump victim" toot-sweet, "Nothing escapes the pump" (i love saying that) lol.

So in the absents of any thing else. I must conclude, that this, "foam" is indeed a result of the Oodinium free swim cycle bursting forth into the tank and creating; just as you say Sleepe, a "highly dissolved organic compound" full of nasty stuff, looking to infect a new/same host.

I have also concluded that many people here suffer quietly, buying more fish and/or just slink away, defeated, never documenting their trials. As I have learned, these are very common problems and I apologize but I have searched these forums for quite a few keywords.

Maybe my searches need honing?

Maybe the databases will only hold so many years of data?

Maybe folks are so demoralized and defeated they don't have the spirit of will to post their tribulations?

I can find no reason for this; the folks here, are pleasing, friendly, helpful and very accommodating and I know, I've been around some boards,,, this is a damn nice group of people here, and I thank each of you.

There has always been a helping hand extended to me and I have personally felt comfortable enough to fail.

Maybe I'm strange, but I learn what won't work (a bunch), until I find what will and I'll use any help I can find.

I don't know, seems there are plenty of HSM around, Why the lack of details then- it has to be, the personal responsibility of husbandry and the emotional investment involved with maintaining life, that intimidates people into silence.

OMG, Rant < off! Remember, I said, "Verbose, sometimes" lol ...more port Wench

it's heep big, past my bedtime.
thanks