Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

This post is to consolidate the info on the cycling of my barrel ponics set up which I think will become the pee ponics outdoor testing rig.

PostPosted Jan 21, 2008
I was figuring on using humonia for cycling. I've been doing the experiments with aging the urine and such. One advantage of aging the urine before putting it in a system is that it is already converted to ammonia so the process doesn't need to wait for the urea to be changed before starting.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:23 am
I've added the first 500 mL of Hummonia to the system to start some cycling! I would guess that there is roughly 100 gallons of water throughout the system and urrently perhaps over 80 gallons of media (50 + gallons of river rock in the half barrels, 4 + cu ft <or 28+ gallons of a mixture of stuff> in one of the troughs and another 1/2 cu ft (3 1/2 gallons) in the top floating plant tank.) A bit later I will take some tests to see if that amount of ammonia has any effect. There are already plants in the system so I expect that they will take up the nitrate quickly once it starts forming.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:20 pm
And here are the test results several hours after adding the bottle of Hummonia.
pH Hi Range 8.0 (looks like I'll need to lower it a little or balance with
rain water)
Ammonia 2-3 ppm looks like (higher than expected I think)
Nitrite 0 (as expected)
Nitrate 0 (as expected)


PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:19 am
steve wrote:
Tim, there are scattered reports (and some confirmations) that over a certain ppm ammonia might inhibit good bacteria growth.
I'd say get a test kit, "dose" till you have say 2ppm, then "re-dose" when it comes down to say 0.5ppm.
you can probably consider yourself cycled when it will process the 2ppm down to zero in a day and you have no nitrites.
Steve


I just had to copy this quote here so I would be able to find it again easier when I need it. I find searching for anything on this forum to be challenging.
Anyway, here are test results for this morning.
Water temp between 10 and 11 am 52F or 11C
pH still 8
Ammonia still between 2 and 3 ppm
Nitrite .25 ppm
Nitrate between 0 and 5, I'm going to guess around 1 or 2 ppm by the color.
Wow, I wasn't really expecting things to move along quite so quickly! Very Happy

PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 6:53 pm
Water temp at 6:45 am was 52F.
This evening when I got home from work the test results are as follows.
pH 8.0
Ammonia 2-3 ppm
Nitrite between .25 and .50 ppm
Nitrate between 0 and 5 (looks like maybe 4) ppm

PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:01 pm
Test results today (worked long day so this is all that happened today.)
pH 8.0
Ammonia still 2-3 ppm
Nitrite 2ppm
Nitrate- 5 ppm

PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:15 pm
Today
pH 8.0
Ammonia 2 ppm
Nitrite 2-5 ppm
Nitrate 10 ppm
Top tank above the flush tank has been growing lots of alge so I am toying with putting a bell siphon in it and filling with media to be a regular grow bed instead of floating or pond plant bed. It might make a good place to test using sand as media.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:29 pm
Today's test results
ph 7.8 - 7.9
Ammonia 2 ppm
Nitrite 2-5 ppm
Nitrate 5 ppm (I do have plants in the system so they are probably responsible for this going down)
Was a bit warmer today and supposed to be so tomorrow so hopefully the bacteria will get a move on.

PostPosted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 9:55 pm
Tonights water tests
pH 7.9 perhaps even a bit lower
Ammonia 1 ppm (finally moving down more)
Nitrite 2-5ppm I think
Nitrate 5 ppm
I only added the one dose of aged hummonia so far. I'm wondering if I should does again before ammonia reaches 0 or if I need to wait till the ammonia is all gone before dosing?

PostPosted: Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:58 pm
Today's readings
pH 7.8
Ammonia between .25 and .50 ppm
Nitrite 5 ppm or more (I'm wondering if it's actually been more than I've been reading it as for a while.)
Nitrate 5 ppm (I'm wondering if it may just stay there since there are already plants in the system)
As the Ammonia has been dropping and there are no fish in the system to injure, I went ahead and dosed again with another 500 mL water bottle full of aged urine (this bottle was dated 1/17/2008 and has been over the pH 9 benchmark for a while now.)
I will test again tomorrow to see the effect.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:37 am
Well the second dose had an effect!
Today's readings
pH 7.8
Ammonia 4 ppm
Nitrite off the scale above 5 ppm
Nitrate 10 ppm
Perhaps I should go plant some broccoli to be ready to use the nitrate as it keeps climbing! I'd better hurry as the cool season might not last much longer here.

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2008 7:59 pm
Todays readings in the barrel ponics system (still no fish)
pH 7.2 quite a drop wow, hopefully it means the bacteria are busy.
Ammonia .5 ppm apparently so at least on the ammonia front.
Nitrite still off the chart above 5 ppm (I hear this is the hard spike to get over)
Nitrate back down between 5 and 10 ppm.
I do have a couple SF of media being cycled connected to the barrel ponics system that I plan to seed the big system with once I have a grow bed done to put it in.

PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 8:41 pm
Anyway, here are the test results for today.
pH 7.0 (oh boy, I had not thought I'd need to worry about pH getting too low with my water.)
Ammonia 0ppm woo hoo!!!! that part of the cycling is doing nicely
Nitrite Darn it, I'm not sure how to read this color. Probably still 5 or above though the shade looks more like .5 or 1 the saturation is more like 2 but the darkness of the purple probably means 5 or above.
Nitrate still around 5 ppm.
Well, the Ammonia being back down to 0 makes me want to run out and dose again but should I wait a day or two to see if the Nitrite starts coming down? Remember there are no fish to hurt in any way at this point. All just plants, water, gravel and pee.

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:14 pm
Ok, tested again today.
pH 7.0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite still that dark color I can't really read as it doesn't look like the 5 ppm and not like any others so I diluted by ten and re-tested. That looked like .5 so times ten equals 5 ppm so now I know the card isn't really that accurate compared to the color of the liquid and now I know the saturated purple is 5ppm or more.
Nitrate still 5 ish.
I guess I'll wait a couple more days before dosing again, anything else I can do to help the nitrite cycling?
I've asked some questions about what to use to keep the pH good but I'm going to wait and see what the pH does before I use anything. As the Ammonia cycle started working the pH did quickly drop from 7.8 down to 7.0 but for all I know the natural buffering capacity of my water might be good enough to keep it there. If it does manage to drop more I'll add the egg shells.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 1:01 pm
I'm back, well at least for today.
On 2/6/2008
I had to add water as pump was sucking air!
Test reasults ph 8
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 2
That is all since it was about 3 am when I got home from work. (so I guess technically the date should be 2/7 but as I had not been to sleep yet it was still the day before in my mind and same with the next test)

2/7/08 (I'm very tired since it was after 1am this time, technically 2/8 like note above)
I only tested for Nitrite which was down to 0

2/8/2008 around noon (day off to recover before going back tomorrow)
pH 7.4
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 5 or a bit higher.
After that test I added 1/2 a bottle of aged urine from 1/19, or about 250 mL. I will let that be in the system for a bit to mix and re-test a little later today.
Some of the broccoli seeds have germinated.

And here is a consolidation post of the last few days of the cycling where I did lots of tests.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: Reply with quoteEdit/Delete this postBottom of PageBack to top
Nice, less than 3 hr after adding 250 mL hummonia. (3 pm 2/8/2008)
pH 7.4
Ammonia .75
Nitrite .25
Nitrate between 5-10 ppm

Those buggers work fast since I expect that adding 250 mL should have brought me up over 1 ppm on the ammonia.

Will be interesting to see what the test shows tomorrow evening. I may be tempted to test again tonight to see how quickly things are working. I won't have time to test in the morning as I'll be leaving for work early, I hope I get home to test again before midnight tomorrow.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:22 pm Post subject: Reply with quoteEdit/Delete this postBottom of PageBack to top
Time lapse testing anyone?

I did another test at 8pm
pH 7.2
Ammonia between .25 and .50
Nitrite ?between 1 and 2 I think as I seem to have difficulty reading the colors
Nitrate 10 perhaps a tiny bit more.

I expect the Ammonia to be 0 by the time I test again tomorrow and I'm really hoping the nitrate is coming down by then too!

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 1:57 pm Post subject: Reply with quoteEdit/Delete this postBottom of PageBack to top
Hay, I managed to get up early enough to test this morning and then I got done with work early too so I tested again!

6 am Feb 9, 2008
pH 7.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite .5
Nitrate between 10 and 20

1 pm Feb 9 2008
pH 7.6
Ammonia 0
Nitrite .25
Nitrate 10-20 ppm

PostPosted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quoteEdit/Delete this postBottom of PageBack to top
now we are talking cycling! Things seem to be going well.

7pm Feb 9, 2008
pH 7.2
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10
So that is about 31 hours after a dose of 250 ml into the system which I expect had brought the ammonia up close to 1 or 1.5 ppm.

Looks like things are going well for a system that got it's first dose of ammonia on Jan 24 2008. That is 17 days into the process. Looks like I only have a little more to go on this cycling thing.

I dosed again with 250 ml at about 7:30pm and we will see how the readings are tomorrow evening when I get home from work.

PostPosted: Yesterday at 7:49 pm Post subject: Reply with quoteEdit/Delete this postBottom of PageBack to top
Well the overnight temps cooled off a bit and perhaps slowed down the bacteria as I still have Nitrite 24 hours after dosing. Only a small amount.

Anyway
last dose was 7:30 pm yesterday

Today at 6:45 am
pH 7.2
Ammonia .5
Nitrite 1
Nitrate 10

Today 7pm
pH 6.9
Ammonia 0
Nitrite .25
Nitrate 10

Gave it another 250 mL (aprox) dose at 7:30 pm today 2/10/2008
We will see what we got as of tomorrow after work. Oh, since the pH made it below 7, I put some mashed up egg shells in a paint strainer bag and suspended it in the flush tank. Interesting, I thought there was a chance with my water that the pH wouldn't manage to fall below 7 unless there was a large influx of rain water or offset it.

PostPosted: Today at 7:00 pm Post subject: Reply with quoteEdit/Delete this postBottom of PageBack to top
For the last few days I've been dosing about 250 mL of hummoina each evening and by the next eve the ammonia is back to 0 and Nitrite has been getting closer to 0 each time. The Nitrate however is falling too so I suppose the plants are using that up too.
Dosed last even at about 7:30 om and the readings today at 6:30 pm were
pH 7.2 (and that is with some egg shells in the system for the past 24 hours.)
Ammonia 0
Nitrite between 0 and .25
Nitrate Between 5 and 10 but closer to 5

I dosed 250 mL again after testing and I think I will up the dose a bit starting tomorrow eve to see if the plants would like more nitrate.
Remembering this is a system unlikely to see any fish though a little of the gravel from it will be kick starting the big system that gets fish eventually.

I will now begin reporting the progress of my Barrel-PeePonics system here on this thread! (I had been tracking my fishless cycling on My other system thread but I've decided this one is going to remain fishless for the time being.)

Here are the plants in the system on Jan 27, 2008


Here they are on Feb 9th 2008

Hi TCLynx,
I really enjoy following your well documented progress with the peeponics.
Your plants have grown a lot even through the cycling stage. The cabbage (could be cauliflower) looks a picture of health.
The solitary lettuce looks a bit less happy though... iron or magnesium deficiency perhaps or maybe its just sulking because its alone in the corner

Actually the sad alone one in the bottom Rt corner is a mustard green I think. You are right that it isn't looking too good. The rest of them are all lettuces except for two Kales one in the bottom Left corner and the other in the top left corner of the right barrel. Oh and there is a stray onion in there too.

Tonight's readings (remember last night was an addition of a small dose of less than 250 mL)
2/12/08 11pm
pH 7.0
Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate between 5-10 closer to 5

Dosed after taking sample. This dose is a full bottle 500 mL. I should be off tomorrow so will hopefully get to test at a reasonable time. Hopefully the plant will like the increased nutrients

.............not see any fish? why the hell not?

you've got a kicking biofilter there now! you could probably stock at full capacity straight away!

But this is the PeePonics experiment system Steve.

Don't worry, I will eventually get some fish and There is extra gravel hooked to this system currently just for the purpose of helping get the biofilter started in the big system that will get the fish. I just gotta finish building the grow beds, get them lined/plumbed, filled with washed gravel and then that system can get started cycling in time for hot weather.

2/13/08 readings 7pm (late last evening gave big dose of 500 mL Hummonia)
pH 6.8 (little low, perhaps need more egg shells)
Ammonia 0-.25
Nitrite above 5
Nitrate 10 ppm

I'm going to give it a day or two longer before dosing again but I'd like to see if the system can be worked up to handling the higher dosage given a little more time. It will be interesting to know what the max dosage is for a given GB volume since for PeePonics the system really only needs enough tank to feed the grow beds.

I`m not sure if you could supply enough "raw material" on your own to outrun them

If my math is anywhere near close (its early), i guess 80 gallons of media could cope with upto 90g of ammonia a day given optimum conditions.. roughly equivilent to 3kg of fishfood per day.

In a single hit, ~23ppm so several smaller doses spread throughout the day would be the way to go at that point

Hum, Scratching head wondering how to figure out how to equate that with a particular volume of aged urine.

Well, I'm currently running with something over 55 gallons of media in the system. A full bottle of aged urine can bring the ammonia ppm up to 4 but that is more a relation to the amount of water in the system not the media. I would estimate the total amount of water in the system between 75-100 gallons at any given time.

Unless a system were really big, a person can definitely provide enough urine for it. Part of the confusion might be that fresh urine won't show as ammonia right away because enzimes need to convert the urea into ammonia which takes a little time.

I notice in many discussions about fishless cycling some people think it takes a large amount of urine to provide the ammonia but that is not the case. This system is currently only managing to cycle about 250 mL a day (which is less than one run to the funnel) of my urine which is probably pretty dilute since I drink lots of water. If the weather would help me out I think I could get the cycling up to 500 mL a day.

If a person were to start peeing in their system all the time, they would probably wonder for the first couple days why it wasn't doing much and then as the urea converted to ammonia, they would have a spike that just kept rising long after they quit peeing in the system. It is said that the nutrient load from one person's urine for the year is enough to support growing all the grain for that person for the year. I'm not quite sure how to test that statement as Florida really isn't a good location for growing grain.

Oh, ran a quick test around 9 this morning 2/14/2008
Just pH and Nitrite
pH low 6.6 so I put in the rest of the egg shells
Nitrite .25 good coming down despite the chilly night.
Will dose again this evening with a bit less than 500 mL.
Plants are looking pretty good except the kinda yellowish mustard.

Heh, all the plants will be yellow-ish.

Fascinating info about the grain growing, keep it up!

A high protein diet would best if you need to increase the potency of the raw material without recruiting more people

For testing the performance of the bacteria, it would be difficult to do it with urine, maybe calculate the amount of a known concentation of chemical ammonia to provide the correct ppm?