Backyard Aquaponics :: View topic - How do you make it truly sustainable?

Without such a circulation there's zero value for such a system in a worldwide catastrophe scenario. When we can't produce the fish food in the volumes that meet our consumption, it's a failed system.

You could buy one of those composting toilets and use it to fertilize a dirt garden to grow some of your fish food. Maybe use a wetland based treatment system also if legal/practical in your area. But it will always have some inputs, even if it's bugs and such flying in.

I just stumbled upon this from my facebook 'aquaponics' page... mind you, it is bloody terrible as a source (facebook) but everyone is capable of moments of genius...

http://www.marbledcrayfish.com/

So... has anyone been doing anything but the flatworms or black flies? I know some of your Aussie Crawdads (Yabbies) spawn fair often if they're eating well... (yes, the occasional red worm... but do they really reproduce well enough to use them as a food source for the fish? How big a vermiculture does one need to maintain to keep it a continuous source? And... do we all need to head out to the boonies to have space to do it? I really don't wanna leave town, dammit.)

Author:	Javin007 [ Feb 14th, '13, 13:30 ]
Post subject:	How do you make it truly sustainable?
So I've been looking into systems like this for years, and always run into the same problem. For instance, in all the systems I've found on this site, it still boils down to the same basic formula: You are converting "fish food" into "human food". It's no different than the problem of perpetual motion, or the laws of thermodynamics. When you're taking something out of the system (in the form of human waste) you're not re-introducing it into the system. In a situation where there is no longer an infinite supply of fish food, how could the system be maintained? Has anyone come up with a system that takes human waste - the result of eating these plants and fish - and brings it back into the system? Without such a circulation there's zero value for such a system in a worldwide catastrophe scenario. When we can't produce the fish food in the volumes that meet our consumption, it's a failed system. Does anyone have any info on how to make this work?

Author:	earthbound [ Feb 14th, '13, 14:14 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
No, not really... Any system that has multiple uses and makes use of waste streams, has some place. Systems can be as productive as you like, you just design your systems back more along the lines of the Asian carp ponds with vegetables growing on the banks or on floating rafts.

Author:	faye [ Feb 14th, '13, 14:31 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
Quote: Without such a circulation there's zero value for such a system in a worldwide catastrophe scenario. When we can't produce the fish food in the volumes that meet our consumption, it's a failed system. I suppose with a view like that we'd all just give up now. But having tried aquaponics on a small scale and found that it works well, it gives more food for thought and the experience leads us to improved systems. If everybody can make a small difference it surely helps and at the same time educates our chidlren about what we are able to achieve and the reality of how food is grown and killed. That is a reality in itself, which some people don't like. I have many friends that don't like the thought of things being killed, but I know they are thinking they will all come to me if things go wrong. At least I might be able to teach them a few simple things that they can do to minimise their reliance on the supermarkets. You can also grow and collect and breed other sources of food to feed fish, which include duckweed, worms, soldier fly larvae and other assorted bugs. Surely it could form part of an integrated system, don't you think? (There are loads of discussions about growing your own fish feed and some are already starting to make their own, if that is what they choose) My aquaponics system has become an extremely valuable addition to my home garden and over the years we have continued to add to the productivity of the property, now it gives back to us. We can grow fish, chickens, rabbits and pig (not allowed to eat the pet pig) plus we have lots of fruit trees and collect eggs. With more effort we could support ourselves many of the weekly meals. It would be made easier if my freezer didn't keep failing but I'll save that one for the venting thread.

Author:	tambra77 [ Feb 14th, '13, 14:58 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
I like the fact that I can give my family organic veggies without paying 10.00 for a head of lettuce. Also fresh fish where I know what they've been fed. I agree there is room for improvement (in all things). But we all must start somewhere. This type of system is so much better than my traditional dirt garden. Especially in the Deep South where so much water is wasted through evaporation during the summer heat. Just my opinion..

Author:	rsevs3 [ Feb 14th, '13, 15:00 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
In a backyard sense it would be near impossible to be entirely closed loop. It depends on how far you wanted to take it. Could you collect enough water alone? You won't have water utilities. How would you pump the water? If you just don't want to buy fish feed then you could feed your fish from a backyard. Cricket colonies could be fed from lawn clippings etc. IMHO AP would not be something you would be attempting for quite a while after a global collapse if at all. Lessening your global impact is certainly something worth trying. Sent from my GT-P7100 using Tapatalk 2

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Author:	yogurt [ Feb 14th, '13, 22:32 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
You could buy one of those composting toilets and use it to fertilize a dirt garden to grow some of your fish food. Maybe use a wetland based treatment system also if legal/practical in your area. But it will always have some inputs, even if it's bugs and such flying in.

Author:	Javin007 [ Feb 15th, '13, 02:05 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
yogurt wrote: You could buy one of those composting toilets and use it to fertilize a dirt garden to grow some of your fish food. Maybe use a wetland based treatment system also if legal/practical in your area. But it will always have some inputs, even if it's bugs and such flying in. I like this idea, also the possibility of growing cricket colonies, perhaps in this garden. Naturally, my concern is that you couldn't use human waste as fertilizer for foods to be consumed by humans. A bad bout of E. Coli if antibiotics aren't around and you're in a bad way. But using that waste to create the fish food is the answer I'm looking for (not sure why all the negativity from everyone else). What plants would you recommend for use as fish food, and how would you "prepare" them for the fish to eat? And barring that, what would be some good plantlife to use to grow the crickets/worms to feed the fish? While I understand you can't have a completely closed loop, you can close it as much as humanly possible to make it a self sustaining system.

Author:	dancinhrblady [ Feb 15th, '13, 02:57 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
Javin... utterly sustainable is still viable goal. Fish food, while a number of 'good' names have been floating about the forum, the truth is still that depending on a source out of your control means, unless they are honorable, what you see may not be what is inside. Since you're in VA., your access to farmland far outstrips my own... The closest is two hours away, and I'm really trying to avoid it... but one trip to 'seed' your fish food development-- as has been said, bugs and worms are tasty treats. You also have open streams close by that should not have been contaminated by human waste. We have intermittent streams... but most have planaria (flat worms) and meal worms are fair easy... Even http://www.b2science.org/ hasn't worked out the bugs... no pun intended. And, you have to remember, by taking out the 'food' for ourselves, we've already broken the system. I've been trying to come up with what would constitute a protein rich fish food... and my first thought was some kind of bean and rice blend... but consider the amount of GB space you'd have to dedicate, and then the time to 'blend' and test... but then, I'm dealing with everything here depending on long distance shipping. If anything ever happens to disrupt that flow (most of our food comes from CA., but we also get produce and meat from the northwestern states... ) like a severe earthquake, our lives could get very interesting. We don't grow anything to eat here but slot machines... and they are rough to get down..

Author:	Ryan [ Feb 15th, '13, 04:54 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
Use your noggin mr negative. You could grow tilapia in a green water system using your crap, cow crap etc as the nutrient input. You could feed the baby tilapia from the green water system to a carnivorous fish species, then grow your plants in that water. Saltwater multitrophic systems are working on solving this issue as we speak. Approach any situation with the forethought that it is certainly possible, you just haven't figured it out yet.

Author:	j8ey [ Feb 28th, '13, 10:28 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
How many times does the human feces have to be broken down to remove the risk of e coli? My understanding is that tilapia don't suffer too much with no protein, so is it safe to grow vegetation directly from the waste then use that to feed to the fish you intend to eat? This seems like the most logical conclusion to me..

Author:	solidwoods [ Apr 9th, '13, 23:59 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
Depends on you're resources. I use aged horse manure, cardboard, phone books, food scraps to raise worms. The fish diet is supplemented with the worms. One could dry , grind, pellitize the leftovers from harvesting fish , ad duckweed or azola and farm BSF also to feed the fish. jim

Author:	dancinhrblady [ Apr 10th, '13, 01:22 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
I just stumbled upon this from my facebook 'aquaponics' page... mind you, it is bloody terrible as a source (facebook) but everyone is capable of moments of genius... http://www.marbledcrayfish.com/ I must assume they are small enough to be eaten by fish, rather than by humans... We used to have a crawdad population in our streams, but the reduction of the water table for golf courses and expansive lawns has dropped it over the years, and now we only have intermittent streams. Crawdads were on the list of 'invasives' that my state doesn't permit... so I'll have to look into it. But!! As I have said before, I want very much to be able to sustain my system, even if we lose access to shipping for a while. My mom has well water... so if the worst were to happen, I could move the system there. A pain, but better than dead fish. We'd need a generator... but her neighbors (lives in a cul de sac with one well, three houses) will have that covered. The experiment done in Arizona-- Biosphere... & Biosphere 2... demonstrated that diversity is the key, and that takes space. After that, we're essentially ALL harvesting solar energy, one way or another... cows & other ruminants convert grasses that were converting solar with mineral and water... you get it. Between the worms and the fish, we break down the food fed to the fish. Our fish can utilize green food... but your Perch and trout like bugs... is it the protein, or is it the hunt? I read that even other animals... frogs, lizards, pet spiders... require bugs that are carrying a 'nutrient load': have eaten well on kitchen scrap or offal to maintain the critter eating them... So... has anyone been doing anything but the flatworms or black flies? I know some of your Aussie Crawdads (Yabbies) spawn fair often if they're eating well... (yes, the occasional red worm... but do they really reproduce well enough to use them as a food source for the fish? How big a vermiculture does one need to maintain to keep it a continuous source? And... do we all need to head out to the boonies to have space to do it? I really don't wanna leave town, dammit.) I'm actually almost finished with my clean-up... just a few more branches to cut down, and then to clear the undergrowth where it had lain... five barrels itchen to get started... and the visions of pumps and plumbing dancin around in my head...

Author:	RupertofOZ [ Apr 10th, '13, 04:20 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
dancinhrblady wrote: I just stumbled upon this from my facebook 'aquaponics' page... mind you, it is bloody terrible as a source (facebook) but everyone is capable of moments of genius... http://www.marbledcrayfish.com/ And Facepuke isn't a very up to date source either.... If you search the forum for "marbled crayfish"... you'll see it was raised several years ago... The blokes been flogging the idea for years... and has been basically shunned... partly because of his complete disregard for bio-diversity.. and more particularly... because of the threat that the species poses to bio-diversity... They're considered so invasive and threatening... that the species is virtually banned world-wide... Don't touch them... do go near them... and don't encourage him... please... Quote: So... has anyone been doing anything but the flatworms or black flies? I know some of your Aussie Crawdads (Yabbies) spawn fair often if they're eating well... (yes, the occasional red worm... but do they really reproduce well enough to use them as a food source for the fish? How big a vermiculture does one need to maintain to keep it a continuous source? And... do we all need to head out to the boonies to have space to do it? I really don't wanna leave town, dammit.) Likewise... worms, of all sorts of varieties... and black soldier fly... have all been discussed many times.... Their has been some extensive work done in the UK and Europe with regards to flatworms as the basis for fish feed... And BSF were a popular feed substitute for a while... but are very high in fat... and required rendering before they were anywhere near acceptable.... as a fish feed... Interest has waned with regards to BSF... at a commercial level any way... Like all sorts of other things.... in the end.... none of them are a complete, or balanced feed susbstitute... but can be a source of supplementary feed... As to worms... and how many are required to form the basis of feed for your fish.... In short... a bloody truckload... daily....

Author:	dancinhrblady [ Apr 10th, '13, 04:50 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
Oh... Rupert... you are so poetical... BSF though? I guess I need to go on search. OH!! wait... Black Soldier Fly! HA! I love it when I figure out your shorthand. Of the things I cruise on a regular basis... I was looking for 'standard poodles' on the interwebs... one breeder goes totally 'raw'... and part of her blend was 'offal'... she does insist that the herds are healthy, etc. But I would not introduce uncooked offal into my AP system. That said... if one is cycling chickens, perhaps goat or lamb... even cow... and had a huge freezer capacity... and all the time in the world... Oh, crap. We're back to shipping food, again. Well... a girl's gotta dream.

Author:	RupertofOZ [ Apr 10th, '13, 05:11 ]
Post subject:	Re: How do you make it truly sustainable?
There ain't nothing wrong with a dream.... Chickens, goats, lambs. cows.... big freezer... fish, crustaceans & veges.... sounds like paradise to me.... I sometimes wonder why I left NZ...

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