Fishless Cyling

trout

earthbound wrote:

Each to their own trout.... But I think you would find that you can't catch chlamydia from an aquaponic system someone has peed in, when you eat the produce..

Just as I wouldn't have a problem eating food grown with manure in ground growing systems. In fact I'm just making up some chicken manure compost tea that I will spray on our ground crops.

Each to own, absolutely. At the end of the day, each and every person needs to make up
their own mind.

But to make an informed decision, one should be aware of all the information.
And all I've ever done is try to expand that information so that someone can make
an informed decision.

Quote:

"you can't catch chlamydia from an aquaponic system someone has peed in,"

And you can guarantee this, how?

Do you have any information as to how long chlamydia lasts in an aquaponic system?

I admit I picked chlamydia more as a stir, however the question remains,
how long can a pathogen last in a system.

Lets look at Avian influenza.[AI](this may be of interest to you as you make up your chicken manure compost tea)

Quote:

Poultry litter is a good source of nutrients and organic matter for growing crops (Marsh et al.,
2009). Poultry Manure is made up of faecal droppings, wood shaving (bedding), waste feed and
high load of microbes (2 - 4). It is commonly used by vegetable farmers as organic fertilizer (1 -
3). Vegetable contamination by pathogenic microbes is of great health importance in leafy
vegetables, especially those consumed raw, as farmers often broadcast their poultry manure over
already established crops (2, 3). Human exposure to poultry dust has been associated with
various infectious, allergic, respiratory and immunologic diseases (4).
Avian influenza (AI) is a highly contagious viral disease affecting several species of birds used
for food (chickens, turkeys, quails, guinea fowl, etc.), pet birds and wild birds (5). The AI viruses
are orthomyxoviruses, influenza type A and exhibit high frequency of genetic resortment with
resultant antigenic changes in the viral surface glycoproteins. This makes influenza viruses
formidable challenge for control efforts (6). Highly pathogenic AI viruses of the H5N1 subtypes
are zoonotic agents that present a continuing threat to animal and human health (7). Avian
influenza (H5N1) outbreak was first in Nigeria in the year 2006 (8), since then the disease has
been ravaging poultry farms in the country.
Humans can contact AI virus through direct contact with bird faeces and respiratory secretions,
droplets and by mechanical transfer through contacts with contaminationated formites (9).
Depending on environmental conditions, AI viruses may remain infectious in manure, water, soil
and contaminated equipments for at least 35 days and perhaps as long as 3 months in colder
climates (9). The serious pandemic threat posed by AI H5N1 intensified the urgency of global
pandemic preparedness for influenza H5N1 (10).
The objective of this study is to assess the physical and psychological ill-health of vegetable
workers that make use of poultry manure and their awareness of AI pandemic threat.

ref: http://pelagiaresearchlibrary.com/advan ... -3-1-7.pdf

So, the next big question is what health warnings and or regulations exist?

use of human urine

Quote:

Recommendations for the use of human urine
• For crops that are to be consumed raw, one month should
pass between application and harvesting (withholding/waiting
period)
• For single households the urine mixture can be used for all
type of crops, provided that
– the crop is intended for own consumption
– one month passes between fertilisation and harvesting

ref: http://conference2005.ecosan.org/presen ... onning.pdf

Quote:

The U.S. regulations for organic production require that raw animal manure must be composted unless it is applied to land used for a crop not intended for human consumption; or is incorporated into the soil not less than 120 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion has direct contact with soil; or is incorporated into the soil not less than 90 days prior to the harvest of a product whose edible portion does not have direct contact with the soil surface or soil particles. See 7 CFR 205.203 (c)(1) and (2).

ref: http://www.ota.com/organic/foodsafety/manure.html

I think the above reference answers gorotsuki69 comment.

Manures are usually composted to try to kill the pathogens.

Do you remember the Chinese imported vegetables full of E. Coli ?

IMPORTANT

What follows is my opinion as to why we should be aware of how to use manures/urines.
hence no references.

Over the thousands of years that we have evolved, evolutionary barriers have evolved with us.

Species barrier
pathogens of one species are harmless in another species.

metabolism barriers
pathogens of cold blooded animal are harmless in warm blooded species.

diet barriers
pathogens of herbivores are harmless in carnivores.

[why do they recommend covering your children's sand pit to avoid cat scat contamination?]

Therefore, in my opinion by using fresh urine in an AP system we directly jump these
three barriers.

So, if it was perfectly safe, why are there all these precautions/regulation about its use?

In summary.

Manures should be composted before use
Appropriate with holding periods should be observed.

Makes you wonder, what would happen to AP generally if these regulators had a close look
at AP systems?

Sorry about the long post but health and general hygiene has always been a special interest of mine.
cheers Lou

TCLynx

Hence why I always recommend sealing the urine in a bottle and aging it till the urea content has converted to ammonia and the pH has risen which tends to kill most of the common possible pathogens (like e. coli) being carried by healthy people. Research Liquid Gold.

I prefer well composted manures for use in any food production system. I leave a compost pile to age for a year before use in the garden. Worm bin material for 4 months.

earthbound

trout wrote:

Quote:

"you can't catch chlamydia from an aquaponic system someone has peed in,"

And you can guarantee this, how?

Do you have any information as to how long chlamydia lasts in an aquaponic system?

I admit I picked chlamydia more as a stir, however the question remains,
how long can a pathogen last in a system.

cheers Lou

No, but can you guarantee it is in there? Why is your uninformed opinion any more valid or true than any other uniformed opinion? :dontknow:

And really you need to be relevant Lou, no I am not going to think about avian influenza when I make up my compost tea, why?

Quote:

Has avian influenza ever occurred in Australia?

The H5N1 strain has never been reported in Australia. There have been five outbreaks of other avian influenza strains in commercial bird flocks in Australia, all of which were successfully eradicated. The last reported case was in 1997 in Tamworth, NSW. Previous outbreaks occurred in commercial poultry farms in Victoria (1976, 1985 and 1992) and Queensland (1994).

There have been no incidents AI infection in humans reported in Australia.

People should be more caution about walking out on the road, driving your car or about a million other things they do everyday.

Don't make assumptions and then string together an argument based on those assumptions. What am I doing? Making compost/manure tea, So you know how to make manure tea? Since when did that ever turn into a debate about application of fresh manure onto food crops? I don't think gorotsuki suggested any such thing either.. :dontknow:

netab32

The fact that its quoted as one month between fertilization and harvesting would be extra reason not to worry about using Urine to cycle a system anyway... 4 weeks in on a new system wouldnt be producing anything edible to worry about if thats a concern... :dontknow:

On a side note I do have a friend that tried Urine therapy I think its called - drinking it is a lot further than I would go personally... but many people (and monks) have done it on a regular basis, and for many years...

trout

netab32 wrote:

- drinking it is a lot further than I would go personally... but many people (and monks) have done it on a regular basis, and for many years...

Totally agree, not a practice I would aspire to either.

As for the monks drinking their own urine, it shouldn't make a difference because any
pathogen in the urine will already be in their bodies.

Big problem would be drinking someone else's urine.

trout

earthbound wrote:

I don't think gorotsuki suggested any such thing either.. :

gorotsuki69 wrote:

trout
ever eaten anything grown in soil?

gorotsuki69 asked if I had ever eaten anything grown in soil.
The implication being that they are grown using manures/urine.

My reply was quoting current practices of using composted manures and with-holding periods
hence my eating anything from the soil would be under these regulated safe conditions.

I don't knowingly eat anything from china since the analysis showed high level of E. Coli in
their produce.

earthbound wrote:

No, but can you guarantee it is in there? Why is your uninformed opinion any more valid or true than any other uniformed opinion?
And really you need to be relevant Lou,

Yes, I can guarantee it is in there, If it's in the urine and you pour that urine into the
AP system, it will be in the system. (not what you meant, I know)
But, I can't guarantee it will grow and become pathogenic just like you can't guarantee it's safe.

gorotsuki69 claimed "urine is sterile if you are healthy."
And it was this statement that I highlighted and was directly responding to.

My example purely showed that you may think you are healthy yet unknowingly are
infected with a pathogen that is detectable in the urine.
This is fact not uninformed opinion.

These are my exact words:

Quote:

Very true, but how does one know if one is healthy?
There are countless bacteria that can be present in human urine and the person will have
no indication at all of their presence.

I'll pick one to illustrate my point.

earthbound wrote:

People should be more caution about walking out on the road, driving your car or about a million other things they do everyday.

Yes, you are correct, and we have regulation that govern those activities so that the general
safety of the community is maintained.
Just like there are regulations to the use of manures.

earthbound wrote:

Don't make assumptions and then string together an argument based on those assumptions.

So, what are my assumptions:

Using fresh raw urine has a potential of being harmful.

And what do I base my assumption on:

Swedish Institute for Infectious Disease Control pg 12

Quote:

Recommendations for the use of human urine
• For crops that are to be consumed raw, one month should
pass between application and harvesting (withholding/waiting
period)
• For single households the urine mixture can be used for all
type of crops, provided that
– the crop is intended for own consumption
– one month passes between fertilisation and harvesting

Again this is fact not uninformed opinion or assumption.
This is compiled by experts in the field of Infectious Diseases.
They state urine is low risk, but it is not "No risk" hence the short with-holding period
compared to the more extensive regulations for faeces.
Most countries if not all have regulations regarding the use of manures and urines
and I have not found any that say it's perfectly safe to use.
All have conditions and with-holding periods.

freoboy

I would happily eat any veggie grown in pea ponics, or even peed on (and washed) its still gotta be healthier than being sprayed and watered with chemicals!

Jachymor

I have a question here. If you do you AP without any fish at all and simply "feed" your plants via bacteria, is a pump-system needed? I saw a simple build with a fish tank and a floating platform which holds the plants. Are there any other benefits in fishless aquaponics without pumps other than electric savings?

sendthis

Jachymor wrote:

I have a question here. If you do you AP without any fish at all and simply "feed" your plants via bacteria, is a pump-system needed? I saw a simple build with a fish tank and a floating platform which holds the plants. Are there any other benefits in fishless aquaponics without pumps other than electric savings?

I think the system you're talking about is called the "raft" method/system.

Well coming from the "ornamental" fish side of things and planted tanks,.. not having fish would certainly simplify maintenance. Not maintaining the tank and disease spreads quickly. Chances are good that there are always some kind of disease in your fish and when the tank gets dirty, it becomes harder for fish to fight off infections. So from that point of view, there is no headache with dealing with fish.

Plants are typically hardier than fish as well. For those of us that don't live in warmer parts of the planet, if electricity goes out, plants are a little more tolerant to temperature, air, etc.

I've seen this debate in the fish forums. I've also seen where people use human waste as "fertilizer" and there are actually steps to make sure it's safe.

This is my opinion: I'm not convinced it's dangerous to use urine. My gut instinct says to avoid human excrement. Either way, just the yuck factor, I would stay away from. I like to have friends over and if I feed them something, I feel it's important that I can be candid about where my fertilizer comes from. Whether I think it's dangerous... I would say it depends on the plant (think celery and those experiments with food coloring teachers do in school) but generally, I wouldn't be concerned about it.

If it comes down to survival, 'rules' change. So if it's a matter of physical or financial survival (i.e. world economic depression and food shortage), urine definitely is back on the table.

If it's a matter of an organic or cheap option, I think I would go with vermicompost tea as my nutrient source. This also works as a recycling system. I would save the pee for the flowers...

earthbound

You're misinterpreting what I'm saying trout. I'll just leave it at that because it's only going further off topic and nowhere fast.

jacjap

Hi Lou.....have been following the conversation as well as all the other contributions with much interest. Got some Carley Carp and Seasol today, do you add it as directed on the bottle. Charley Carp says 10ml to the litre so a 2000 litre tank would take 2 litres...right? Is this all you do, just the one dose and let it do the cycle until all tests (ammonia, nitrate and nitrite) come up neutral, PH around 7 to 8. And also add seasol as directed on the bottle. Thanks

donone

If you take the fish out of the system you have gone back to Hydroponics, Hence the nutrient problems. And the pollution problems when you dump the water again.

Any way all this is about getting the system cycled and no more Pee after that.

If you do not like Pee in the system use urea instead, or use fish. Lots of people use goldfish cause they do not care about them. I do not use Pee myself because when I was working some of the engineers had to go to Singapore and China to assist the start up of systems there and the girl was hospitalized a couple of times when she came back. Once was almost 2 months form the food there. They use human fertilizer straight on their fields. It is dangerous.

freoboy

jacjap wrote:

Hi Lou.....have been following the conversation as well as all the other contributions with much interest. Got some Carley Carp and Seasol today, do you add it as directed on the bottle. Charley Carp says 10ml to the litre so a 2000 litre tank would take 2 litres...right? Is this all you do, just the one dose and let it do the cycle until all tests (ammonia, nitrate and nitrite) come up neutral, PH around 7 to 8. And also add seasol as directed on the bottle. Thanks

no.
to cycle the system you need to add charlie carp till you get a ammonia reading of, say, 1-2. then keep it there until you get a nitrate reading (meaning all the bacterias have grown). then stop adding until your ammonia and nitrite read 0, dose charlie carp to ammonia of 1ish, and wait till they get to 0. keep repeatign till the levels reach 0 in less than 24hr, then your ok to add fish

trout

jacjap wrote:

Got some Carley Carp and Seasol today, do you add it as directed on the bottle. Charley Carp says 10ml to the litre so a 2000 litre tank would take 2 litres...right? Is this all you do, just the one dose and let it do the cycle until all tests (ammonia, nitrate and nitrite) come up neutral, PH around 7 to 8. And also add seasol as directed on the bottle. Thanks

Hi Jacjap

I wouldn't follow the directions on the bottle.
As I have mentioned I used urea and since it's a single component I could add a heap in at once
because I knew exactly what was in it.
Charlie carp is ground up fish hence will have many other ingredients of which we don't know
how huge doses will act.

What I would do is put in (100ml) of Charlie carp and 50 ml of seasol into the system.
(reason I picked those figures is I used Powerfeed/seasol in those ratios in my 2500 litre system
while waiting for my next batch of fish) The water colour was a weak to mild tea colour.

Once you add the mixture you probably won't get an ammonia reading for a couple of days as
the ammonia may be in a bound form that needs to be broken down.
It took 4 days for the urea to break down.
So you need to be patient.
once you get an ammonia reading follow the directions that freoboy gave.

It'll all fall into place

cheers Lou

Markymark

Question can you cycle the system with fish manure? I mean it should have all the stuff in it the system would normally have and the plants needed it so I'm wondering if this is a viable option for cycling (presuming your source of fish manure is safe)? Didn't read all the comments but just wondering if anyone has done this.

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Fishless Cyling

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A place to discuss aquaponics