Topping up my tank

RupertofOZ

Journeyman wrote:

:lol: RoO has a thing about Seachem's Prime - personally I have never claimed anything except that it breaks down chloramines and allows me to use tap water to top up my tanks while I wait for a good rainwater supply.

And the Science IS there for it breaking down chloramine.

Oh really..... show me the science.... the chemistry... please.....

Quote:

I'm not sure where he goes to read other claims about it but it sure don't come from me.

I go to Seachem.... here it is... all their "claims" ...

http://www.seachem.com/Products/product ... Prime.html

I'll quote the bits... and address them....

Firstly.... their "claims"...

Quote:

Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime® may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime® detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels. Prime® also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat.

Wow... what a wonder product....

Removes chlorine, chloromine and ammonia..... how???

What it breaks the chloramine NH2Cl bonds.... which would leave NH2... and a chloride ion (Cl-)... (more later)....

What happens to the NH2???... of course... they immediately bind with H+ ions.... to form NH3, or NH4... depending on pH....

And they even say so (bolded).... although the rest of their "chemistry" is pretty bodgey....

Quote:

Prime® also contains a binder which renders ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate non-toxic. It is very important to understand how those two functions work together. All dechlorinators operate through a chemical process known as reduction. In this process, toxic dissolved chlorine gas (Cl2) is converted into non-toxic chloride ions (Cl-). The reduction process also breaks the bonds between chlorine and nitrogen atoms in the chloramine molecule (NH2Cl), freeing the chlorine atoms and replacing them with hydrogen (H) to create ammonia (NH3).

WTF?.... "dechlorinators" reduce the "toxic dissolved chlorine gas".... into non-toxic chloride ions....

No you junk science buffoons... the unbinding/reduction of chloramine.... releases a chloride ion.... :roll:

But they did get the second part right, sort of..... the chloride ion is replaced with Hydrogen.... to create ammonia (NH3)....

Well it will... if the pH is high..... but ammonium (NH4+)... if the pH is low....

But ammonia IS toxic.... and they recognise that....

Quote:

Typically, dechlorinators stop there, leaving an aquarium full of toxic ammonia! Seachem takes the necessary next step by including an ammonia binder to detoxify the ammonia produced in the reduction process.

Ah... the mystery compound... and chemistry.... the "binder".... that somehow magically "binds" the ammonia... so that it's no longer toxic......

So what happens to the chloride ions????..... probably... they off gass.... but they also have another purpose...

Quote:

Prime® promotes the natural production and restoration of the slime coat rather than relying on artificial or non-native slime compounds

Yep... just like salting to mitigate against nitrites..... the chloride ion is responsible.....

Due to the role the chlorine ion plays in osmotic blood regulation.....

And it also.... stimulates ... slime coat production.....

So yep... Prime.... having broken the bonds of the chloramine... releases chloride ions... that mitigate against nitrites.. and promote slime coat production... and stress relief for fish...

But hang on... didn't they say they "bind" all this stuff.... so that it's all non-toxic.... :lol:

So what happens to all the ammonia, nitrites, nitrates etc.... when they're all unbound... and then magically rebound.... they get "removed".. "de-toxified" somehow....

Well... yep.... even they note....

Quote:

allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them

That's right.. in the end... the chlorine has bubbled off... and the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates... have all been dealt with....

Not by the Prime... but by nitrification.... in the biofilter..... remember this bit... :lol:

Quote:

Prime® removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime® converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter.

I can't find the reference.... but I've seen Prime suggest that using the product... can result in a "false reading" for ammonia with most test kits.... :shock:

But that's alright... they sell an ammonia test that "compensates for the false reading... :lol:

To combat nitrites and nitrates.. requires a dosage about 5x normal....

But they didn't actually know that the product could do it.... the reef aquaria blokes found out...

And they don't really understand how, or why it does so.... but hey... we'll claim it.... :lol:

Here's a response given by Prime on the Reef forum.... http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showp ... stcount=10

Quote:

The detoxification of nitrite and nitrate by Prime (when used at elevated levels) is not well understood from a mechanistic standpoint. The most likely explanation is that the nitrite and nitrate is removed in a manner similar to the way ammonia is removed; i.e. it is bound and held in a inert state until such time that bacteria in the biological filter are able to take a hold of it, break it apart and use it. Two other possible scenarios are reduction to nitrogen (N2) gas or conversion into a benign organic nitrogen compound.
I wish we had some more "concrete" explanation, but the end result is the same, it does actually detoxify nitrite and nitrate. This was unexpected chemically and thus initially we were not even aware of this, however we received numerous reports from customers stating that when they overdosed with Prime they were able to reduce or eliminate the high death rates they experienced when their nitrite and nitrate levels were high. We have received enough reports to date to ensure that this is no fluke and is in fact a verifiable function of the product.

Or... and by the way... although they reckon that they don't use Sodium BiSulphide.... the

Quote:

Sulfur odor is normal

...

Come on Journeyman.... these guys... and the claims... are just plain unscientific nonsense... and I'm being polite...

RupertofOZ

P.S ... I didn't address the removal/detoxification... of metals.....

I couldn't find any explanation by Prime.... and my memory of alchemy is a little rusty these days...

MartinC

RupertofOZ wrote:

Which makes me wonder why Journeyman is so dead keen on the product... shit, it claims to do everything, all at once... except turn lead into gold...

Rupe, I think you mean "turn kale into gold" ?!

(Darn, I feel bad making a sarcy comment like that, I really like the old geyser.)

PLJ

RupertofOZ wrote:

P.S ... I didn't address the removal/detoxification... of metals.....

I couldn't find any explanation by Prime.... and my memory of alchemy is a little rusty these days...

Here is a pertinent extract from the Perth Cichlid Society forum:

"The fact is that most manufacturers of water treatments add small amounts of sequestering agents such as EDTA salts to bind ionised metals in solution. They actually do this quite efficiently initially.
The problem is that most sequestering (binding) agents are complex organic salts with a significant nitrogen component. Although in higher concentrations these substances can prevent bacterial action by excluding access to some essential micronutrients, in the very dilute form used in water conditioners they actually provide a nutrient substrate for some bacteria, and are fairly rapidly broken down, thus releasing any bound metals.

Disaster is sometimes averted by the released metals gradually becoming bound to other organic molecules, such as naturally occurring tannins and humates, proteins and other dissolved organic carbon. The problem is that eventually even most of these substances are broken down by either bacterial action, or complex chemical reactions, and in the process metals can be released, and toxic effects follow.

I suspect that many obscure aquarium problems are due to this sequence of events, which however can be partially averted by good husbandry, including frequent partial water changes and judicious use of suspect water."

RupertofOZ

Yep... you'll often see the MSDS of such products... including Prime... as containing "hydrolysed salts"... :wink:

RupertofOZ

PLJ wrote:

Here is a pertinent extract from the Perth Cichlid Society forum:

Quote:

Disaster is sometimes averted by the released metals gradually becoming bound to other organic molecules, such as naturally occurring tannins and humates, proteins and other dissolved organic carbon. The problem is that eventually even most of these substances are broken down by either bacterial action, or complex chemical reactions, and in the process metals can be released, and toxic effects follow.

And that's the end result of processes within overloaded media beds.. overstocked systems.... metallic salts..... totally useless, and if disturbed, potentially oxygen sucking disasters...

And the main reason for the absurdity of incorporating huge media beds... in a "flawedmedia".... "commercial system".... :wink:

mantis

Cam007 wrote:

:support: thanks everybody for your tips on adding water to my tanks
I just need to top them up a little bit so I will
Spray it in I think

Checked with our water dudes and they don't use chloramine so I top up with tap water and sometimes maybe 40% with no problems. I do have float valves on all sumps/fishtanks that I top up though as once I left the top up hose in all night , and that didn't end well
Care is needed but toping up regularly is no problem

Journeyman

Hm... I could have sworn I had a link showing Prime to use sodium thiosulphate, (Na2S2O3) which is why I said the Science is there for the purpose for which I use it. But I can't find it so I figure maybe I got mixed up with other products I was looking at after I lost the goldfish.

Seachem imply it is a Na2S2O3 solution in their blurb but don't actually say so.

Quote:

The Sceptical Aquarist
On the other hand, when your tapwater tests positive for ammonia, this is a sign that your water is being treated with chloramines. The Washington DC water utility offers a document "Tap water and fish" generated by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which injects a note of sobriety into this sometimes panic-inducing situation.
Being a public agency, the Washington Aqueduct couldn't recommend any commercial brand, but in general they recommended four general methods for neutralizing chloramines:
1. activated carbon in filtration,
2. sodium thiosulfate,
3. commercially-available de-chloramination products ("some simply remove the chlorine, while others 'lock up' or detoxify remaining ammonia"),
4. a chemical agent plus a biological agent ("bio-filter") to remove the ammonia. (You should already have known all this, eh?)

No. 3 sounds remarkably like Seachem's blurb.

At the time of the deaths, my ammonia was slightly raised and the fill was from the garden hose - it was meant to be a small top up and I got distracted. So it was a lot more than had been planned. My understanding is, chloramines into water with ammonia is a bad thing - probably either an ammonia or perhaps a nitrite spike killed the fish. I'd guess ammonia simply due to the speed of the deaths but there are articles suggesting chloramine binds to haemoglobin in the fish.

Quote:

Chloramine toxicity. Chlorine is an oxidizer, which burns a fishes' gills. Chloramines, on the other hand, pass across the gills of a fish and into its blood, where the molecule attaches to the hemoglobin, acting like nitrite to induce methemoglobinemia.

From above site...

Incidentally, Na2S2O3 is also useful for dealing with heavy metals - it is used medically in heavy metal detoxification and arsenic poisoning - if it is Na2S2O3 in Prime, that might explain the heavy metals claim.

But, I stand corrected. I am unable to provide the Science in detail.

But I will keep using the product - my fish are all alive and healthy now. Goldfish, a hardy species, died from the tap water. Like I said the first time you took me to task for daring to mention Prime, if it works I will use it.

RupertofOZ

Journeyman wrote:

Hm... I could have sworn I had a link showing Prime to use sodium thiosulphate, (Na2S2O3) which is why I said the Science is there for the purpose for which I use it. But I can't find it so I figure maybe I got mixed up with other products I was looking at after I lost the goldfish.

Seachem imply it is a Na2S2O3 solution in their blurb but don't actually say so.

Quote:

The Sceptical Aquarist
On the other hand, when your tapwater tests positive for ammonia, this is a sign that your water is being treated with chloramines. The Washington DC water utility offers a document "Tap water and fish" generated by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, which injects a note of sobriety into this sometimes panic-inducing situation.
Being a public agency, the Washington Aqueduct couldn't recommend any commercial brand, but in general they recommended four general methods for neutralizing chloramines:
1. activated carbon in filtration,
2. sodium thiosulfate,
3. commercially-available de-chloramination products ("some simply remove the chlorine, while others 'lock up' or detoxify remaining ammonia"),
4. a chemical agent plus a biological agent ("bio-filter") to remove the ammonia. (You should already have known all this, eh?)

No. 3 sounds remarkably like Seachem's blurb.

I agree... it's very probably Sodium Thiosulphate... (not BiSulphide as I mistakenly wrote)

But that just means... that it's essentially not any different than the majority of the other "dechlorinators"....

And the blurb that they "remove the chlorine, while others 'lock up' or detoxify remaining ammonia" ... isn't really valid... as I posted...

Sodium Thiosulphate is consistent with most of their "claims".... and consistent with AP conditions...

Thiosulfate anions characteristically react with dilute acids... like carbonic/carboxyl acids.... to produce sulfur, sulfur dioxide and water

Na2S2O3 + 2 HCl → 2 NaCl + S + SO2 + H2O

Giving you the salt.... that mitigates aginst nitrites... and induces slime coat production...

And the "sulphur" smell... they concede....

But if you look at the equation... you'll see an association/combination... producing HCl.... hydrochloric acid...

While Prime is suggested to be pH neutral... the end result isn't (necessarily, depending on start point).....

But disassociation of the HCl.... results in a H+ cation.... lowering pH... and a chloride anion....

The chloride ion can gas off.... (removing the "chlorine").... and the free H+ cation.... binds to the NH2 of the disassociated chloramine NH2Cl..... to form ammonium... at lower pH levels...rather than toxic ammonia...

Thus seemingly "de-toxifying" the ammonia.... until nitrification by bio-filtration converts it to harmless nitrate...

(As an aside.... Sodium Thiosulphate is often used to counteract chlorine saturation/overdose in swimming pools... by way of the formula above)

Quote:

At the time of the deaths, my ammonia was slightly raised and the fill was from the garden hose - it was meant to be a small top up and I got distracted. So it was a lot more than had been planned. My understanding is, chloramines into water with ammonia is a bad thing - probably either an ammonia or perhaps a nitrite spike killed the fish. I'd guess ammonia simply due to the speed of the deaths but there are articles suggesting chloramine binds to haemoglobin in the fish.

Quote:

Chloramine toxicity. Chlorine is an oxidizer, which burns a fishes' gills. Chloramines, on the other hand, pass across the gills of a fish and into its blood, where the molecule attaches to the hemoglobin, acting like nitrite to induce methemoglobinemia.

From above site...

Yep... very probably ammonia.....

However... it's not the chloride that burns the fishes gills... as suggested in the other quote.... it's the ammonia.... and it's not the chloride that attaches to the haemoglobin to induce methemoglobinemia...

It's the nitrogen... exactly as occurs in nitrite poisoning.... as the Skeptical Aquariarist points out in his article....

http://www.skepticalaquarist.com/chlorine-chloramine

Quote:

Chloramines, on the other hand, pass across the gills of a fish and into its blood, where the molecule attaches to the hemoglobin, acting like nitrite to induce methemoglobinemia.

The suggestion that chloramines cause methemoglobinemia.... has probably been confused with the effect chloramines can have on the human body.... especially in kidney dialysis.....

Dialysis patients are treated by activated carbon treated water.. to remove the chloramine....

Quote:

Incidentally, Na2S2O3 is also useful for dealing with heavy metals - it is used medically in heavy metal detoxification and arsenic poisoning - if it is Na2S2O3 in Prime, that might explain the heavy metals claim.

Thiosulphate can certainly bind with some soft metals... like aluminium and silver.... swapping the cation for bromides and iodides...

And can replace cyanide.. in gold extraction....

In fact Thiosulphate can be used as an antidote to cyanide poisoning....

But it doesn't really "bind" heavy metals....

Edited: the link that suggest Prime is Sodium Thiosulphate.. also known as Sodium Hydrosulfite... was probably this one Journeyman..

http://tbas1.wiredtron.com/index.php?topic=149.0

Neither of the above sources... are particularly fond of Prime... or similar products... in relation to chloramines....

Activated charcoal... or Vitamin C... are probably the most effective ways to deal with chloramines...

PLJ

Journeyman, you say your Goldfish 'died from the tap water' but how can you be certain that these deaths resulted from the presence of chloramines? I experienced some fish (Rainbow Trout) deaths last year under very similar circumstances but it couldn't have been chloramines in that instance since it was ground water that I overfilled my tank with. I attributed the deaths to lack of DO since the water I added - about 20,000L - was largely devoid of O2 since it hadn't been exposed to air at all after being pumped up from 35m below. The surviving fish were at the surface and exhibiting the hallmarks of suffocation due to a lack of oxygen.

If the nozzle of your hose was discharging water below the surface then you would have a similar situation to mine. The amount of DO in reasonable fishwater, I believe, is typically about 4-5 PPM and only needs to be diluted to about 2 PPM to cause fish deaths.

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Topping up my tank

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