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The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
http://byap.backyardmagazines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=5487		 Page 1 of 8
Author:  mcfarm [ May 19th, '09, 06:10 ]
Post subject:  The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
With the exception being friendlies system in Hawaii, certified by Oregon Growers (I think), AP cannot be certified organic in most places on earth. If AP is to develop commercially (and as much as I dislike bureaucracy) we will need some sort of standards to make it palatable (pun intended) to the public. Rather than letting bureaucrats take control of our labelling etcetera, I suggest we be proactive and develop our own standard.

My reading of the organic standards for Oz (and Europe too) absolutely precludes dwc uvi style systems as the system must be "soil based" - NB. the standards were originally worded to exclude hydroponics. A case could be made for gravel/media based grow beds, but, as it stands, AP and media beds are not covered by the standards, so by default are excluded and cannot be certified organic. I have confirmed this with the powers that be :roll: and at best AP produce can be labelled chemically free/pesticide free and so on.

The one big thing organic standards lack world wide is a sustainability measure, so a large monoculture industrial factory farm, relying on huge amounts of trucked in inputs and energy from great distances, can be certified organic (provided the inputs are allowable) - eg. monoculture industrially farmed organic spelt from Italy travels 17,000km to get to Oz - how stupid is that? Certainly not sustainable.

Anyway I am suggesting that AP considers developing it's own standard and labelling that it deems better than "organic", and one that includes some measure of sustainability. As the number one site for all things AP, I would suggest this is a good place to start.

My suggestion is that we formulate what would be an appropriate standard, right here on line with input from all, and then once fine tuned, enshrine it in cyberspace. Annual reviews of the 'standard' would allow for any future developments in AP to be incorporated after suitable online debate/scrutiny. Oh and the KISS principle must apply.

Any thoughts?
Author:  TCLynx [ May 19th, '09, 06:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
I'm not likely to be growing AP veggies/fish commercially so my input is really as a hobby. (Keep in mind that the majority of the people here on this forum are doing Backyard Aquaponics and not commercial.)

Anyway, as a point, I'm becoming less and less interested in being "strictly organic" since corporate greed has tended to skew the intent.

Personally, I think it might be better off trying to educate people about Aquaponics and how it precludes the use of most pesticides and herbicides since they would hurt the fish and bacteria. I know there are people happy to buy Hydroponically grown lettuce. Why would people not be interested in Aquaponically grown produce?

Good Luck on working out some organization and guidelines to create "Organic" Aquaponics.
Author:  mcfarm [ May 19th, '09, 07:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
TCLynx wrote:
Anyway, as a point, I'm becoming less and less interested in being "strictly organic" since corporate greed has tended to skew the intent.

Personally, I think it might be better off trying to educate people about Aquaponics and how it precludes the use of most pesticides and herbicides since they would hurt the fish and bacteria. I know there are people happy to buy Hydroponically grown lettuce. Why would people not be interested in Aquaponically grown produce?


Agreed on the corporate greed and the corrupting of the original intent of the organic movement. I like Joel Salatin of Polyface Farm catch cry, "beyond organic!" as he is not certified organic and incorporates many sustainable ideas that aren't cover by the standards (are are better than them).

People will be happy to buy AP produce if they know what it is and how it's produced. Some sort of simple standard will go a long way to help. Also I am taking the pre-emptive strike approach and invading the bureaucrats turf before they become aware AP is a future force to be reckoned with 8) If it is kept online, a bit like open source software, we can beat them at their own game of claiming the high ground.

As much as I dislike it, commercial operations will be governed by regulations and legislation, if we don't step up to the plate, the bureaucrats will. Once they are on base you can't get em off because they write the rules of the game, and the rules are prepared for them by the major players - think Walmart or if in Oz Elders and Woolies, or Aldi in Europe, Sainsburys in the UK etcetera, where corporate profit rules supreme.

Anyway something like: Aquaponics - beyond organic! followed by a simple charter/code of ethics would suffice initially. The charter/code could spell out the intent of AP which could then be measured against certain 'gold standards'. The starting point could be the ideal, which might be a zero external input closed loop system (zero input after initial set up). I think if you set a hypothetically perfect high bar (which no standards does btw) and then an admissions low bar (all current standards) you fundamentally change the nature of the game. People and businesses should aim for the to and not to just clear the low bar of minimum standards. My two cents worth.
Author:  gemmell [ May 19th, '09, 07:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
There was a discussion a little while ago on this topic, and I think one of the suggestions is that we make our OWN standard - Aquaponically Certified - organic by necessity - beyond organic - whatever you want to call it.

Heh, what about "Aquaponics - organic by nature".
Author:  mcfarm [ May 19th, '09, 08:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
The issue here in Oz (and everywhere else in the world except the US) is that the words organic and biodynamic will subject to Aust Stds very soon (months away at best). As such we will not be allowed to use the words on product unless we comply with the new AS????:?? Those who claim to be organic will be sued by the govt. (under fair trading regs) unless they can prove they are 'organic' ie. meet the organic standards and be certified.

This is a big problem (not mention an outrageous commandeering of our language) because it is impossible for AP to meet the current standards - period, so we will not be able to claim organic status no matter how good, clean, fair, and green the system/operator. 'Beyond organic' may scrape through, as we would be claiming to be something other/more/better than 'organic', which is why Joel Salatin uses it.
Author:  TCLynx [ May 19th, '09, 08:42 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
I don't know that you can really say no external input point blank. (Sun, Air, Water, electricity for pumping and Fish feed are all gonna be ongoing external inputs even if you can get to the point of having the system provide some of the fish feed and perhaps even breed it's own fish.)

It seems to me pretty simple. All additives should meet some Orgainc standards plus be fish and bio-filter safe. Bigger challenge for a commercial operation is gonna be finding "organic" fish feed seeing as most commercial fish feed is gonna contain GM modified soy and/or corn by this point in time.

So, the real sticking point, how many steps away do you have to get from the system before the need for "organic" proof dwindles. I mean does the feed for the animals that provide the manure to provide the farm with compost need to come from a farm that used manure from organically raised animals that were fed all organically raised feed?

Also, a portion of most good fish feeds is usually fish meal. That fish meal is often from "trash fish" from the oceans and who organically certifies them.

We are in a larger world and we need to decide how we will live in it, with our eyes open to the fact that no waste actually goes away or will we keep our eyes closed and hope that by eating "organic" food we escape all pollution? I think Aquaponics is a good and important step but I also fear that there really is little chance of being truly "organic" ever again.

Sorry just watched a thing about Monsanto and the reality that mutants are here and probably hear to stay (no matter what we do now as the pollen has spread) has hit home.
http://www.twilightearth.com/2009/05/the-world-according-to-monsanto-full-documentary/

I like the Aquaponic organic by nature or perhaps Aquaponic organic by design
Hum AON or would that be APON Or AOD or APOD
Aquaponic tested by fish?
Author:  DecalsbyJT [ May 19th, '09, 10:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
Hey

sounds interesting....

how about something like this...

jT

Attachments:
File comment: Just something I stuck together..
aquaponics-organic-by-desig.jpg
aquaponics-organic-by-desig.jpg [ 46.44 KiB | Viewed 13242 times ]
Author:  tamo42 [ May 19th, '09, 10:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
How about "Aquaponics - Nature's Cycle" or something like that? Ignore "organic" all together.
Author:  Taz [ May 19th, '09, 11:09 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
"natures best man/woman made ecosystem" ?

not sure where I read it, so I won't take any credit for it but it sounded clever!

edit; sorry added the /woman part :oops: (although in this context I guess it means manking)
Author:  DecalsbyJT [ May 19th, '09, 11:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
how about

aquaponics
natural by design ???

jT
Author:  goola [ May 19th, '09, 11:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
No Chemicals, Just Nature.

I do like Organic by Nature.... much better than Fish Poop Food.
Author:  RupertofOZ [ May 19th, '09, 11:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
+1 Goola....

I always describe AP... as "organic by nature"... and organic by design"....

The organic standards (in OZ) were being challenged and reviewed at one stage ... specifically the definition of "soil based".... to be modified to "media based"....

Which would emcompass both hydroponics and aquaponics...

The stupidity of the current definitions and legislation... is that almost anyone can claim that their produce is "organically" grown...

As other than those that wish to export.... it is not compulsary to actually be "organically certified".... and most growers, even those who are totally organic.... don't bother to actually seek certification...

Those with contracts to the big buyers... do so... but as it isn't required in order to actually label or claim "organic".... most don't...

And the reality is... that many of the "organic" growers.... have some pretty nasty chemical crap hidden behind their cupboards for disease control...

And some questionable non-organic standards seed and seedling inputs....
Author:  Chappo [ May 19th, '09, 12:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
Now I'm get the idea why my company " Fish Sh*t Enterprises" failed. :shock:

StickersbyJT ,, I love that design , so much so that i have already patented it ,, please don't use YOUR design again,,LOL.

We may struggle to be allowed to use Organic ,, but we sure as heck will qualify for the red heart tick .....,
Author:  RupertofOZ [ May 19th, '09, 12:15 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
Only if you pay for it.... :wink:
Author:  bundaberg kid [ May 19th, '09, 17:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: The Organic Standards are not for AP!!
RupertofOZ wrote:
Only if you pay for it.... :wink:



+1...just like inghams chickens ...oops im in trouble now
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