Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I'm partial to switching your main fish to Yellow Perch of course. Feed the Tilapia veggies, feed the perch Tilapia, Ta Da. A closed loop.

and no one needs to know about the tilapia! PERFECT!

Well there's a lot of food for thought here folks, and I appreciate everyone posting up and voting. The results are unanimous in terms of giving up the tilpia at this point.... :sad6:

John....I cannot source Yellow Perch here locally... so they are not a viable option unless I can breed them from a reliable brood stock shipped from somewhere in Iowa...lol.

Bluegill - breedable - but not as tolerable to low DO - not algae consumer - lower growout size - less is known about tank culture rearing of these fish and achievable sizes. Mathew, what sizes are you seeing from your pool/pond?

Pacu - limited breeding info available, possibly neccesitating hormone injection per Joel - hardy and tolerable of low DO, large growout sizes, possible underground market with local hispanic communuity. Not available except in local ornamental fish stores which necessitates obtaining a brood stock and breeding for cost effective supply.

Koi - High value, low tolerance to rapid water parameter changes, intolerant of tank crowding or dense tank culture, tolerant of low DO, poor disease resistance. Would require more space and large tanks for optimal growth and breeding. Due to high prices, broodstock would have to be obtained to make rearing cost effective.

Hmmmm..............

I think Pacu are out for two reasons really 1) not easily bred and cost in aquaria/ornamental market prohibits stocking for food without broodstock.

So it's really down to bluegill or Koi.....

I can source bluegill very easily and cheaply, for a limited time - but the success of bluegill (ie growout size/time, mortality, density in stocking) in tank recirculating culture is relatively unexplored. Mathew may be able to provide some info.....Mathew PM me please or maybe start a thread (if not one already I will search after this post) in re: bluegill rearing? Or I can start one too....

Koi.... I see a very niche market there, and lots of potential, however, lots of care and maintenance in breeding, pairing, setting up additional tanks for space, etc. w/ Koi. Not that they couldn't grow out in the space I have, but Koi and thier market are fickle about rearing and the value is acheived in selective breeding and discriminite rearing practices. Perhaps if I were retired and had time to devote.

I think right now I need a fairly maintenence free finfish that will breed easily and provide a steady source of both food and fertilizer so that I can sell them to recoup costs associated with rearing.

Another fish option to look into is the giant gourami. I believe the latin name is osphrenemus goramy.
http://www.geocities.com/timrome/index.html
http://www.aquahobby.com/gallery/e_Osph ... goramy.php
they seem to be an aquarium fish (I haven't found any in Alaska, unfortunately) are raised for food in Asia. They are omnivorous, breed readily in captivity (bubble nests?) grow quickly, get huge, live a long time (unless you eat them), can live in fetid, oxygen-deprived water, can also live in air for long periods of time. I understand that their ability to breathe air is one of the reasons why they are popular in Asia -- they stay fresher in open markets because they simply catch them, wrap them in wet newspaper, and sell them live in the open-air markets. Aparently they can stay alive for days out of water as long as they are kept moist.

I just had a very long conversation with a very smart guy at UC Davis. I talked with Fred Conte, the director of Aquaculture Studies at UCD.

In regards to food fish in a recirculating system, I will never be able to compete with the chinese and taiwanese markets regardless of what I raised, and regardless of the underground markets driving demand. He said those markets can obtain farm raised fish dumped here from China at less cost than I could sell them for and make any kind of profit in a closed loop system. He strongly advised that I look into the ornamental fish market and diversify my growth of species among other recommendations that were incredibly enlightening. He is going to be putting me in touch with some major players in the United States in the recirculating tank culture operations business and I will be following up any and all leads. One thing he said that struck me is that in his 30 years in aquaculture, all closed loop recirculating food fish systems with the exception of one in Massachussets..........have FAILED! Wow! It simply isn't a cost effective way to grow fish comparatively when considering other farming techniques. Therefore, on a commercial level, it is not a good investment. However he did say that recirculating closed loop systems can be successful in the ornamental trade. But you have to be diverse and quick to adapt to market changes. He also said the live haul market is good if you can grow the right species in a closed loop system, such as Sturgeon, Trout, Striped Bass, etc....



Hmmmmmmmmmm................

I vote for Sarasa goldfish. Graceful koi-like lines, but smaller and tougher.

Did he include aquaponics in the failed list? Granted I think we are all aware that their isn't a whole lot of money in raising fish, with having to purchase fingerlings and feed them to grow out weight, unless you are the source of your own fingerlings, provide your own fish food and have the veggie side as an added value?
I agree on being flexible, have five types of fish now, not all breeding yet but hoping to close that game out.
I would emagine blue gill would be similar to yellow perch in the grow out? Around a year just guessing.

Yes, he included all closed loop systems, citing that the AP systems are small producing systems that may sell to local markets and register low profit margins and use fish mainly as a source of fertilizer. I told him about BAP systems and he agreed that is a good method for local and small scale production. He thought there were several AP entrapeneurs who were doing AP systems and selling/marketing the consultation side of it moreso than production, which is exactly what I see out there.

The larger commercial operations may be AP inclusive, but not exclusive of other methods and/or crops grown HP, conventionally, or with supplemental bio filtration. But I clearly need to go learn the other methods and attend a short course or two....

Over the next year I will travel back East to Virgina Tech, U of North Carolina, and U of Virgin Islands....who's in?

I'm sure I will switch to bluegill this weekend and learn how well they growout in tank culture. Might as well start diversifying now....


lol

MF... I think this totally sums up the situation..... it's the major reason I have great doubts as to "commercial" AP and people making a living out of it.......

That includes the big players here in OZ..... I really wonder if any of them have broken even on their investment...... certainly most seem to be doing a lot of consulting, and/or investigating expansion into asian countries like Korea and Vietnam where local government subsidies, free or cheap land, and cheap labour and fixed costs may make them viable.

Certainly they have the added advantage of less strigent rules and regulations, a huge and hungery market and perhaps a little less "discerning" and/or "demanding" market.

Well there is a study out there on yellow perch, said something along the lines of comparing the cost of doing I think 5000 and then 50,000 fish. The more fish the less cost per fish and so the more you could profit. Ie the lower the break even price on the fish.
So I would think with just one product you would have to go big. With that all your eggs are in one basket ie the fish.
I am rambling here I am quite aware.
So with out following in everyone elses shoes ie consulting, what can be done?
Diversify your fish, ornamentals and food fish. Diversify your plants as well, along the same lines. I do not see an easy break through into an under cutted market but a slow supplying to local pups etc may test your marketing skills and hone your species selection of each.
The alternative would be to go big and increase the risk.
How much does a cucumber sell for? Can't emagine my growing a half dozen cuc's a week will make me weathly. So obviously for me 100 fish wont do it. A thousand? With in best cases 9 months to grow out on the fish I would have to harvest 100 on a rotating month schedule or bigger yet?
Sorry for rambling on yer thread MF but I think you have made the break thru with the basil and I'd suggest getting your stuff out there is the start.
You have possibly started folks liking and wanting more so the customer base begins.
Have you sold all you have made? Does it sell fast?

Yes....perhaps if one were to developa large AP facility offshore, but then, why would you want to if you had relatively cheap land and labor. A grout pond could produce far more and larger stock without the added expense of tanks, plumbing, growbeds, greenhouses(if necessary).

Where AP is being utilized best is to reduce or recycle fish emulsion in large growout systems.

What the professor told me this morning was to diversify both plant and fish species in recirculating aquaculture. Learn as much about different recirculating systems and techniques, not just AP and the "New Alchemy" approach - and be prepared to roll with the shifting global economy. Right now, he said there is absolutely no way to compete for food fish production against global marketeers in China/Taiwan/Central America by utilizing AP. He said the only succesfully competitive markets are in live haul and ornamental markets, but you will stil have domestic competition. Traditional food fish farms are struggling and going belly up due to land value being very high and production costs increasing (fuel, energy, facility, equipment, etc.) and of course offshore competition. Niche markets in ornamentals and cutting edge recirculating systems that can change with the market no matter where they are regionally will have the best sustainablity.

With the basil there is a demand for more, yes. I have two folks who want more than I can give them at the moment. Although I was able to produce one week faster than anticipated due to the heat, they sold it twice as fast under the freeway. I am set to supply again on Monday around 5 bulk pounds at $10 per lb., that includes stalks and stems uncut. I could support two or three more sets of growbeds with the one rearing tank that I have, but I have nowhere to put that many beds unless I tiered it. I am afraid they will seek an alternative if I cannot produce fast enough so there is that problem as well. I need to switch from Tilapia to bluegill or something else because I don't want to get blacklisted. I also need to expand. There is no doubt that I am out of space. But I could make better use of it if I concentrated some grow bed space in the grow chamber, expanded to the outdoor garden with a small hot house, and got new fish tanks

The only thing I can offer mf is encouragement...wish you well and hope you can keep yourself in front of HSM

This is a fascinating discussion! One more piece of information that might be important for your decision: I've heard that Koi imports are being severely restricted from Asia (disease-related?) -- possibly to the point of closing the ports to new imports. That is going to open the door for the very high end ($1000+ per fish) market in the US. Typically the highest price fish come from overseas. A well-regulated AP system should be a perfect environment for rearing, observing, and breeding prize-winning Koi. An investment ($20K minimum) in Koi could reap huge rewards down the road.
I know very little about raising Koi, but I know that the prices of Koi have to do with their markings, coloration, body conformation, bloodlines, and size. One pair of mature Koi could be expected to produce 50 - 100K eggs -- Assuming 5K survive to 3" fingerling size, you might get one champion ($5000+), up to ten prizewinners ($500+), and several thousand fish you could sell to fish stores for $2 to $4 apiece (or sell direct for $5 to $20) -- or you could grow them out to 6" or even 12" and get considerably more for each one.
You might have to go to fish shows in order to market the fish -- and keep your prizewinning status....

Joel - I thought about Koi and still have a fascination in wanting to grow them. Right now I am researching this possibility. There is alot of competition in the United States however, and many Koi farms have sprung up over the last decade. I would have to travel to farms and visit collectors and study up on rearing/breeding etc.

But what happens when you put this much energy into one species and the market shifts, or the imports from China open back up? Then you are stuck with alot of expensive fish with devalued resale potential.

I am now selling my basil to the local natural food store for $2.00 per bunch. This comes out to roughly $40 per box. I am producing on average one box per week at the moment (actually two boxes every two weeks). With the Tilapia...I don't bother worrying too much about water quality and I don't spend alot of time breeding new fish, they take care of that on thier own just fine.

In fact I have another batch of fry as of Saturday, roughly 200 of the buggers. I intended on going after bluegill this weekend, but I couldn't resist the new free fish I received on Saturday....DANG

Well..... I am off to get more grow beds.... I now have a good connection with the natural foods produce guy.