organic certification

hygicell

as stated:

Quote:

This is to avoid that flower or ornamental plant producers would just have a few fish to grab the label "aquaponics"

I guess there is nothing wrong with a pure aquaponics setup purely for ornamentals.
Not organics certifiable, because organics is for the purpose of food.

Maybe re-frase?

what would you do with a setup where part of the effluent is taken away from the fish to feed the plants, and not recycled?

like with a traditional RAS, with it's say 10 % effluent going through a flowerbed before being discharged, would that be called aquaponics?

not in my mind. That is a RAS with a water treatment.

Frank

GotFish?

I think I stated earlier on in this thread that it is my opinion its AP when all water is recycled, all waste is used on site. So no run to waste.
If it feeds flowers or traditional food plants I do not see the need for the distinction between the ability to be certified AP.
Now I see how my narrow catagorizing of ap is parralled in the flowers no, veggies yes, view.
I guess guidelines have to be set somewhere, if there are to be any.
Perhaps hashing out the need for AP certification first?
I think Adrain talked on this as well, going by memmory here.
Whats the objective?
Is it to ensure only a set type of AP can be certified?
Only those growing eddible foods in Ap can be certified?
Seems to me in this method we are closing doors to different views and methods.
So I guess again, whats the objective?
Running on empty with little sleep hope I am at least a bit clear.
1. Whats the objective?
2. What are the best practices?

RupertofOZ

Frank (hygicell) continues to research the regulations regarding "organic certification" and has recently posted some excellent information on several other forums.....

Much of the impediment to the traditional definitions to "organic" in terms of certification revolve around the original definitions regarding "soil" as an essential criteria for the original "organics" definitions..... and relate to a medium "which makes it possible for plants to find support in and to grow on."

I've paraphrased some of Frank's posts here (hope you don't mind Frank

) while maintaining as much as possible in Frank's own words....

The Standards Paper referenced is an enlightening read and should be read in it's entirity.....

hygicell elsewhere wrote:

I'm afraid we will have to accept that NFT and raft techniques will as such not be accepted, unless combined with some kind of "soil" for the plants to grow and support themselves in. There are solutions for this, like Jiffy pots or bags.....

Note by RupertofOZ :
In Australia products like "Maidenwell" have been certified "organic" and would fulfil the criteria... although present problems in terms of pH ....

In fact I am quite happy with the final USDA recommendations:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/FinalRecom ... -29-07.pdf

The whole document is well worth the read, as it shows how every issue is carefully examined before being either rejected or accepted.

Everything makes a lot of sense.
It shows great future for aquaponics as certifiable organic.

But if you are only interested in the conclusions, read from page 51 to the end.

You will be pleasantly surprised, I hope.

In the definitions section, on page 54, aquaponics is literally described :
"Aquaculture production system. A process for growing aquatic animals and plants in an aquaculture facility."

hygicell elsewhere wrote:

Take the word "soil": there is, as far as I have found (and posted), no concrete definition of it.

As I distil all the information I have read, it is any combination of natural substances, with nutrients, which makes it possible for plants to find support in and to grow on.

So, mixtures as used in aquaponics with gravel, sand (and perlite and vermiculite, as these are literally accepted by certification rules) etc..., as long as they contain no substances considered as "synthetic" (rock wool, glass wool, plastics), inoculated with the nutrients of fish excretions (which are literally not considered as animal manure, see the final USDA recommendations, please carefully read this document) and leftover food, fall within the existing (vague) definition of "soil".

Under these conditions, "media-based aquaponics systems" as you call them are not and should not be considered as "soil-less" systems.

Off the shelf organic fish food is a problem for the moment, but that will be resolved in time as the demand rises.

Note by RupertofOZ :
There is a recent thread on this forum concerning the imminent release of an "organic" fish feed.... another impediment about to be removed

In the meantime, I am under the impression that organic standards and rules are less strict than often thought and temporarily accept this fact and allow for exceptional measures. I seem to have read that somewhere too. Excuse me for not knowing exactly where and not taking the time to find out.

It would seem that "organic certification" for at least some forms of aquaponics may not be as far away as we may have thought or as difficult to acheive as we may have thought.....

Of course this paper relates to US standards... but it's existence, rationale and recommendations would certainly add weight to any revisions to Australian standards....

Excellent stuff Frank..... keep up the good work ...

.

hygicell

I would suggest anybody who wishes to go for certification not to wait, but to literally take over the recommendations as standards right now (while standards are inexistent) and apply for certification.
I would be very surprised if this would be refused as all aspects of certified organics are treated.
it is what I intend to do.

frank

hygicell

and, by the way, thanks, Rupert for quoting some of my posts here
it is difficult to play on different fields at the same time
and to remember what was said where.

frank

DanDMan

The aquaponic journal issue 48 page 13 said

Quote:

Helfter Feeds in Osco, IL offers a fish pellet that contains all organic agricultural products that conform to NOP's national list of materials acceptable for organic livestock production. www.helfterfeeds.com

*EDIT
Their phone # is USA 1-866-435-3837
The product is "Natural Fish Pellets"
9014910ORD50 50 pound bag
32% protein
The price is $54.45 per individual bag.
Shipping is $ to my location

They said it is all "organic" however, they do not have a separate extruder to to qualify for the the organic rating...

hygicell

What is undoubtedly and explicitly promoted by organic standards is to raise and make your own animal (fish) feeds: one principle is that each organic farm should be as self sufficient as possible.
I find that a very reasonable viewpoint.

frank

Stuart Chignell

Well there is still the problem in Australia at least that using hydroponic methods is a no no for organic produce:

Quote:

3.6.1 Organic crops must be grown in soil (i.e. terra firma). Seedling production must use products compatible with this Standard. Growing in earth-less media, hydroponic culture, nutrient-rich plastic films and similar methods and techniques are prohibited in organic and bio-dynamic production systems

Stuart Chignell

But I've just had a thought.

Organic Aquaculture is on the way if its not all ready being done (the relatively easy bit) and certifed (the tricky bit).

We could get our fish production certified even if we couldn't get out plant production certified. Then we could market our produce as

Quote:

Organic Fish and Vegetables for Sale

Normally this would be naughty because gramatically the adjective at the front (organic) applies to everything listed in the rest of the sentance but many dodgy operators use such sentances in their ingredient lists. However, it wouldn't be actually be naughty for us to do so because they would be oprganic vegies, they just wouldn't be certified so because of the stupid laws regarding hydroponic production methods.

Would that work, satisfy people?

DanDMan

Do it like the old timers in WW2; cover your rocks with a layer of soil/potting mix.

creative1

With a will, there will always be a way!

slane

This has prolly been mentioned already but you can download the nasaa standard here
http://www.nasaa.com.au/publications.html
I think the biggest hurdle will be the stocking rates ... no more than 10kg / cubic metre. That's a lot less than 6kg / 100l.
Food can be made from aquatic waste not suitable for human consumption and not by-catch or from organic sources.

hygicell

Stuart, please read all the posts: both the "soil" and the "hydroponic" words have already been treated.
let me repeat:

RupertofOZ wrote:

Frank (hygicell) continues to research the regulations regarding "organic certification" and has recently posted some excellent information on several other forums.....

Much of the impediment to the traditional definitions to "organic" in terms of certification revolve around the original definitions regarding "soil" as an essential criteria for the original "organics" definitions..... and relate to a medium "which makes it possible for plants to find support in and to grow on."

I've paraphrased some of Frank's posts here (hope you don't mind Frank

) while maintaining as much as possible in Frank's own words....

The Standards Paper referenced is an enlightening read and should be read in it's entirity.....

hygicell elsewhere wrote:

I'm afraid we will have to accept that NFT and raft techniques will as such not be accepted, unless combined with some kind of "soil" for the plants to grow and support themselves in. There are solutions for this, like Jiffy pots or bags.....

Note by RupertofOZ :
In Australia products like "Maidenwell" have been certified "organic" and would fulfil the criteria... although present problems in terms of pH ....

In fact I am quite happy with the final USDA recommendations:

http://www.ams.usda.gov/nosb/FinalRecom ... -29-07.pdf

The whole document is well worth the read, as it shows how every issue is carefully examined before being either rejected or accepted.

Everything makes a lot of sense.
It shows great future for aquaponics as certifiable organic.

But if you are only interested in the conclusions, read from page 51 to the end.

You will be pleasantly surprised, I hope.

In the definitions section, on page 54, aquaponics is literally described :
"Aquaculture production system. A process for growing aquatic animals and plants in an aquaculture facility."

hygicell elsewhere wrote:

Take the word "soil": there is, as far as I have found (and posted), no concrete definition of it.

As I distil all the information I have read, it is any combination of natural substances, with nutrients, which makes it possible for plants to find support in and to grow on.

So, mixtures as used in aquaponics with gravel, sand (and perlite and vermiculite, as these are literally accepted by certification rules) etc..., as long as they contain no substances considered as "synthetic" (rock wool, glass wool, plastics), inoculated with the nutrients of fish excretions (which are literally not considered as animal manure, see the final USDA recommendations, please carefully read this document) and leftover food, fall within the existing (vague) definition of "soil".

Under these conditions, "media-based aquaponics systems" as you call them are not and should not be considered as "soil-less" systems.

Off the shelf organic fish food is a problem for the moment, but that will be resolved in time as the demand rises.

Note by RupertofOZ :
There is a recent thread on this forum concerning the imminent release of an "organic" fish feed.... another impediment about to be removed

In the meantime, I am under the impression that organic standards and rules are less strict than often thought and temporarily accept this fact and allow for exceptional measures. I seem to have read that somewhere too. Excuse me for not knowing exactly where and not taking the time to find out.

It would seem that "organic certification" for at least some forms of aquaponics may not be as far away as we may have thought or as difficult to acheive as we may have thought.....

Of course this paper relates to US standards... but it's existence, rationale and recommendations would certainly add weight to any revisions to Australian standards....

Excellent stuff Frank..... keep up the good work ...

.

greetings

frank

Stuart Chignell

Hygicell, don't get me wrong I want you to be right but your interpretation of various standards is an interpretaion not a concrete precedent to which we can refer.

Even if your interpretation of the USDA standards is the one that ends up being used in America that won't necessarily help us in Australia. It is entirely possible that our government and/or local certifying bodies may decide that:

Quote:

it looks like hydroponics therefore is hydroponic there fore it can't be certified.

Like I said I hope not but since no one has tried out your argument yet we don't know.

Stuart

PS The NASAA standards on Aquaculture make for some interesting reading. All sorts of non-organic things that I would have ruled out whole sale they allow.

hygicell

let's stop fearing and hoping and thinking and guessing and speculating.
as this leads nowhere.
the thing to do is to send the USDA recommendations to an Australian certifying agency and ask them to study them and answer whether a setup that abides by these recommendations would be eligible for certification and if not, why not.
Even better, send the recommendations to several or all certification agencies and see how each of them reacts.
it is the only way to find out where you stand.
Frank

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organic certification

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