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CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
http://byap.backyardmagazines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=9585		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  MikeyLIkesIt [ Apr 30th, '11, 01:59 ]
Post subject:  CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
Can someone help me get my brain around how an indexing valve works with a gravity fed CHIFT PIST system?

I'm designing a larger system and would like to keep the sump from having to be so large since the ground here is like concrete. I've read many of the system threads here (great info, btw) but I think I need someone walk me through a setup.

Thanks,
Mikey
Author:  DéjàVoodoo [ Apr 30th, '11, 02:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
I'm looking at using either large diameter sprinkler valvles or electric gate valves to redirect water overflowing from the fish tank. Rainbird has some smaller diameter valves which are intended for "dirty" lines. The RV valves seem to be designed with waste in mind.

TCLynx has a custom job on her thread where she uses rupes spider valve to do the same thing. It takes custom electronics though and looks easy enough to build, but I would prefer to use off-the-shelf stuff if. She also has some info about it on her website: http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/indexing-v ... -fish-tank
Author:  TCLynx [ Apr 30th, '11, 09:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
It is not easy to get an indexing valve working with a normal CHIFT PIST set up where you feed the indexing valve off a gravity feed. As noted I have done it. However, the brains of my automated valve got fried last month when a bug crawled between a couple transistors and I've had to come up with alternate methods.

Anyway, Provided you have a good 18 inches between the high water level in the tank and the valve (and you need that weight of water going to the valve, it won't work with just a trickle over into a SLO that comes out the tank up at the high water level.) If you can find an automated valve that will function without a specific PSI differential (most irrigation sprinkler valves won't work, they need pressure to operate) then you can do it. You will still need an overflow to somewhere so when the automated valve is closed (or if it fails closed) your fish tank won't overflow.) Anyway, get some sort of motorized or zero pressure valve that you can automate and get some sort of brains or controller to run it and have that feed a "gravity modified" indexing valve (The manufacturer knows about the gravity modification because we worked together on that.)
Sigh,
So now I'm pumperflouternating http://www.aquaponiclynx.com/pumperflouternating
Because the brains fried, I had to come up with something else. Well the Flout didn't quiet cut it with the height I had to work with. I almost managed it. If the fish tank had been another foot higher, I think it would have worked to simply feed the indexing valve from the flout but it still would have required a bit of an overflow to allow the flout to work properly (flouts take some balancing too when being used for other than drains.)
So before I started tearing my hair out, I stuck a pump in the flout tank to feed the indexing valves (yes two I'm even piggybacking them now.) So the flow rate into the flout tank is quite fast, too fast for the flout to actually re-float but when the pump kicks in the flout re-floats and the pump runs for about 4 minutes flooding one of the beds then when the pump turns off it takes 30 seconds to a minute for the Flout tank to fill up enough to sink the flout (which is feeding three grow beds at the moment.) and the pump and flout alternate in that fashion.

But if you want it to be a bit simpler to have a constant height fish tank. I'll recommend a version of the CHOP Mark 2 system or perhaps a CHTP system depending on the pump/s you want to use. As long as you are not needing a "clean water sump" for feeding rafts or NFT you can easily have the fish tank overflow into sump and then have a pump that runs on repeat cycle timer to feed the fish tank as well as the indexing valve which would feed the beds in sequence. Everything in a CHOP II system drains back to the sump tank. This CHOP with indexing valve would require a fairly powerful pump to drive the indexing valve will still also providing enough flow to the fish tank for adequate circulation so I've sometimes suggested that it might be better to have a two pump set up where one pump sized right to operate the indexing valve feeding to the grow beds and another pump that could run constantly to feed the fish tank to provide constant flow and aeration and this pump might be small enough to run on the battery backup as well. And hence the CHTP Indexing idea.

Clear as mud?
Author:  MikeyLIkesIt [ Apr 30th, '11, 11:07 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
Thanks for the link, Daja... and thanks for the explanation, TC.

Yes, everything is now clear as mud. :? I'm going to allow some time for the mud in my brain to settle and reread. :) (Actually, I think I do understand much of it.)

At this time I'm thinking that it may be simpler, and maybe not much more expensive, to have a backhoe dig a large sump and have one pump run 24/7 as I am doing it now. I do plan to have at least one raft bed and perhaps some NFT's so I guess I'll need a clean water sump. Also, the lay of my land would allow a two ft. or more drop between the FT and the top of the GB's... I don't know if that would help to simplify an indexing valve setup or not. I will be starting this build from scratch and can configure it as I please... I just want to do it right.

Anyway, I have time to learn more about it as I doubt I will start building until late summer/early fall.

I value your input,
Mikey
Author:  DéjàVoodoo [ Apr 30th, '11, 11:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
Also take a look at rissey plastics. He has a couple things that could help. The alternating flout, and the cuebox.

http://www.flout.net/rissyplastics2/

He has some videos which explain it a lot more then I could.

The newer drip irrigation valves (rainbird) are intended for use with low pressure systems. They do not have the larger size valves that I want, but perhaps it might work for you. The RV Gate valves look the best to me so far. At about 100 bucks a pop though, the price is not all that attractive. I like the whole low voltage things irrigation and/or Rv valves because a simple irrigation controller can be used. The electronics are ruggedized and enclosures are intended for use in extreme environments, so reliability is less of a risk. However you do the indexing, just note it will always be a point of failure, so just design with safe guards in place for when it does fail.
Author:  MikeyLIkesIt [ Apr 30th, '11, 12:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
DéjàVoodoo wrote:
Also take a look at rissey plastics.....


Yea, i stumbled on his website when I was trying to find out what a FLOUT is. Also stumbled onto TC's pumperflouternator thingy. Interesting.

DéjàVoodoo wrote:
...However you do the indexing, just note it will always be a point of failure, so just design with safe guards in place for when it does fail.


Yep. I like the KISS approach. It sounds to me like the simplist way of running an indexing valve in a CHIFT PIST would be with two pumps, or CHTP, as TC put it. I just don't know If I want to do that... there's always a trade off isn't there. :think:

I will look into the valves you mention.

Thanks,
Mikey
Author:  MikeyLIkesIt [ May 2nd, '11, 00:53 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
I've been thinking... :?

Couldn't a flush type tank, such as that in Travis Hughey's barrelponics system, be used to actuate the indexing valve? Also, the flush tank would need to be as large as the GB you are wanting to fill, wouldn't it?

I'm still thinking the CHTP or the large sump is the way to go but...

Mikey
Author:  BullwinkleII [ May 18th, '11, 17:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
or put the second grow bed so the bottom of it is level with half way up the sump. when the water is low in the sump the second GB is empty. when the water is high in the sump the second grow bed is full. I saw this first on here from TCLynx

here is my version

http://120thingsin20years.blogspot.com/ ... ystem.html

sorry the animation is too big for this forum
Author:  AZdesertFarmer [ May 18th, '11, 20:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
I'm using 3-way diverter valves designed for pool/spa use to divert the water from my fishtank SLO to 3 sets of growbeds. The valves aren't expensive but the actuators run about $75 a piece. They run on 24 vac so an irrigation timer should be able to run them. The inlets/outlets are 1.5 inch I.D. and 2 inch O.D.. I've got a friend into electronics who is building me a timer utilizing an Arduino microcontroller. Programing is pretty simple and with 32 input/output pins I can expand it to do more things in the future ( like maybe run an autofeeder linked to a temperature probe to not feed under 50* F.)
Author:  DéjàVoodoo [ May 19th, '11, 06:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
AZdesertFarmer wrote:
I'm using 3-way diverter valves designed for pool/spa use to divert the water from my fishtank SLO to 3 sets of growbeds. The valves aren't expensive but the actuators run about $75 a piece. They run on 24 vac so an irrigation timer should be able to run them. The inlets/outlets are 1.5 inch I.D. and 2 inch O.D.. I've got a friend into electronics who is building me a timer utilizing an Arduino microcontroller. Programing is pretty simple and with 32 input/output pins I can expand it to do more things in the future ( like maybe run an autofeeder linked to a temperature probe to not feed under 50* F.)



Got a link for them there valves?
Author:  AZdesertFarmer [ May 19th, '11, 14:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
Edit by admin "westsidewholesale are a horrible company"
Author:  RupertofOZ [ May 19th, '11, 15:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
The question wil be.... will the valves perform under AP conditions.... or will the buildup of bio-film... and/or solids.... jam them up...
Author:  Food&Fish [ May 19th, '11, 15:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
Talking actuaters has any body herd of Ellkaybee
Author:  RupertofOZ [ May 19th, '11, 15:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
Talked to VB a while back F&F... apparantly Les is fine... a few health scares for both himself and wife.... but he's pulled back with regards to AP...
Author:  Food&Fish [ May 19th, '11, 16:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: CHIFT PIST with indexing valve questions
Bugger to be getting old isent it :oops:
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