Johnny, I have a friend who is slowly losing what is left of his sight, but I don't think he's into AP
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| growing medium and ratio question http://byap.backyardmagazines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=4532 |
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| Author: | JohnnyH [ Nov 27th, '08, 09:07 ] |
| Post subject: | growing medium and ratio question |
back before my accident i worked for a agri supply coop that would custom blend fertilizers. there was a product always added to the blend called "filler" was said to be inert and as best as i could tell it was a clay based product. was small maybe 1mm or so. could this also be the leca product some AP use as medium? i sure hope i can use it , very inexpensive and i can purchase exactly the amount i would need part 2: ratio (shudders) im lost with how many growing trays i can actually gang together to be supported by my 1000 gallon fish pond? and how many fish i need to add koi make a lot of waste but these 2 old lonesome girls i have resident in the pond will need some additional friends to support my veggies. probably cheapie goldfish or more koi. but how many should i start with? thanks very much, johnny can someone clue |
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| Author: | Jaymie [ Nov 27th, '08, 11:50 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
the expanded clay balls that some folks use are balls about 10-15mm in diameter, so bigger than your "filler" for your growbeds have at least 1000gallons to go with a 1000g tank. as for the number of fish, it is better to work on weight of fish according to the volume of tank and growbed. One of the American's (who speak gallons and pounds) will get on here and give you an idea of what weight of fish to start with. |
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| Author: | KudaPucat [ Nov 27th, '08, 12:24 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
1000g is about 4x IBC or approx 4000l That's a decent size. As for number of fish to start with, Not many is the best I can offer. I did have significant losses in a system larger than yours... |
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| Author: | JohnnyH [ Nov 27th, '08, 12:50 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
thanks guys, with myself being in the dark in more ways than normal makes things tough to search out. im sure the same old questions always come from us new folks. i do appreciate the replys. i tried this filler material in a 6 tub HP test with strawberries last year and it was great. i had lots of good berries. as for fish , ill add cautiously and feel my way into things. much more research needs doing. do you guys have any friends or forum folk that you know of, that are low vision? im thinking i can set something up i can manage and operate but would be great to hear from someone that has embraced both challenges. regards and respects, johnny |
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| Author: | Jaymie [ Nov 27th, '08, 13:11 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
Johnny, I have a friend who is slowly losing what is left of his sight, but I don't think he's into AP
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| Author: | TCLynx [ Nov 27th, '08, 22:25 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
Hi Johnny, I'm in Central Florida. I have experience with AP and separate experience with ornamental garden fish ponds. I'm not low vision but I think you should be able to come up with some methods to help you out, where there is a will there is a way they say. I do hope you have some one around who can occasionally be your eyes for things like water testing though. Anyway, that media you mention sounds pretty small and therefore might not drain very quickly and may hold water for a long time. You say you did an experiment with strawberries with it. Tell us more about the experiment. Main concerns I would have with such small media is that water won't move through it very fast and it could become quite compacted. This isn't to say you can't make it work but you will be doing it under special circumstances that many of us are not experienced it to help you with. You probably would not be able to flood such media as often as say gravel or clay balls. You therefore would probably not be able to run water to it continuously having auto siphons drain the beds. This probably means a separate pump on a timer to flood the grow beds and leave your current pump to operate your current pond set up. 1/2" Brown river rock is the media I recommend to people around here. Ratios. What this is usually talking about is the ratio of growbed volume in relation to the tank volume. When people talk about the 2:1 ratio, such a system is probably running a high density of fish and probably also has a sump tank to absorb the water level fluctuations. A 1:1 ratio is pretty good amount for a system that actually produces fish for the family to eat but isn't heavily stocked. Keep in mind, if you don't have some sort of sump tank, your pond level is going to fluctuate. Tell us more about your pond. Is it a well balanced koi pond with plants and a bio filter and a water fall etc? Or is it a very plain tank with two big koi in it that you have to do regular water changes? A well balanced ornamental pond with fish, plants, waterfall, and some bio-filter (could be as simple as the lava rock in the waterfall tank) may have some trouble supporting many veggies grow beds but this will be a balancing act to bring up your stocking density and feed rate slowly until the waste is enough to not only feed the established pond plants but also feed your veggie beds. I would probably start slow by adding a bed and pump on timer and let it run for a while to get the bacteria started in it (this would be slow this time of year since it is cool.) As you fill the bed, spread a layer of pond muck, gunk, filter rinsing into the middle of the grow bed then finish filling the bed with media. This will jump start the bacteria into the grow bed. Once you have a grow bed hooked up and running for a bit, you could add more fish. Here is the tricky part. You will probably need to be testing the water to see if you get any ammonia or nitrite but you will primarily be looking for a rise in nitrate. Does you pond already have any nitrate? Or do the pond plants use everything up? Anyway, once you have some excess nitrate, you can probably get some veggie plants growing. How much fish you need to support a veggie bed is hard to know in an existing ornamental pond since the pond plants can use up lots of nutrients all on their own and we don't know the exact amounts. About all I can say is go slowly and patiently as it is possible that working up a grow bed and adding fish, without causing a catastrophic crash and killing your fish, could take at least several months. (I am assuming here that you have a nice planted ornamental pond with some koi you want to keep alive.) Now if you don't care about the ornamental value of the pond or the fish, you could probably rip out the pond plants and get the veggie bed going with the two fish you have and add more fish as you go. There is some risk of a dangerous spike doing the and the fish might not survive. Good luck! |
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| Author: | Dave Donley [ Nov 28th, '08, 08:44 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
Welcome Johnny!!! Was it the same stuff as kitty litter? |
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| Author: | JohnnyH [ Nov 28th, '08, 09:56 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
Hi , TCLynx its nice to meet you. im in obrien *west of lake city) just north of branford florida. i spent all day trying to get pictures to input so i could show you guys what im trying to work with. no luck and i totally trashed my system trying command line entrys and had to reinstall ubuntu thats a one click deal but lost a lot of files i had saved on all this. maybe it supposed to happen as i was suffering from info overload. ill start again an do my best to use the kiss method this hard poly pond itself is fair as the old koi have done pretty well and survived for 15 plus years now. maybe a testament to koi being hearty the pond has maybe 1/3 cover of native waterplants no filter or pumps running i just draw it down and refill a little less than half. these koi are so friendly i can pick them up and they recognize me , they flee when strangers are near. my friend lesia can see well to read tests when i get to that point. media - is about the size of small aquarium rock. the test buckets i had were nothing more than a gang of 6 feed by one that i would fill with pond water and let gravity take it to the planetd buckets. the medium did seem to drain pretty quicklyfor its small size but i have nothing to compare it to nor do i know how to chart or relate the flow. only reason i was considering this filler is that its very very inexpensive and thats a must here a pump on a timer might just be the best for us anyway to cut down on electricity useage i stuck here 24/7 unless we go to the endless doctors so i sure dont mind tending and monitoring any system i do get up and running no matter how stoneaged it might be. to me it will be just great. more than great. now that brings to mind how fast they might lose level of water. maybe i spoke to quickly  ratio - so with this fish holding tank being approx. 1000 gallons i need 1000 gallons of beds? all i have is 3 30 gallons totes 2 40 gallon and about 8 20's and they are deep like totes are, not shallow like you guys show and use. i hope they can be made to work? really heavy i know, and lots of media too but the media is not an issue if it will also work. lots of variables including working with make do stuff and salvaged items. probbaly the worst part is i cant see the pics or diagrams even if i do find plans that are in my ballpark. im having to rely on text then try to visualize it all and how it works or get lesia to tell me her rendition. argh! i think i understand the method. pump from fish tank and achieve flow thru all plant containers and fianlly return to fish tank via gravity flow. all im really wanting to do is eventually feed us when the state decides they wont or cant anymore. i dont even like most fish but its sure tasty when you are hungry. so no whining from me. ill eat the dog if need be. not my dog of course. AP or HP is the only way we will ever grow anything on this ball bearing sandhill. im driven to make a go of this neighbor guy gave me a 24 hour ac timer today. i dunno if its rated for the amps this pump will pull or not yet though i will relocate the old koi in a hand dug smaller pond and also put the pond plants in with them. i dont want to lose them as they are old friends. i do understand the work up but will need a test kit or machine to take readings. can you point me toward testing kits or recommend something? are there any bargain meters out there? also while i have you here. have you ever tried crawfish? i have not even decided on fish specie but have ruled out the tilapia just due to fact i dont have the permit fee. i do understand they convert feed very well. i may even have to stock with catfish from the river the way things are here. and i doubt ill have a greenhouse up for this cold season. we like all veggies so anything and everything that will grow is game. one last thing for tonight. when i pump in my fish tank water to the GB , where should i place the inlet on a standard height poly tote? im still not fully understanding my plumbing i need to fit up. i need a really dark line drawing of plumbing inlet/outlets. i have tools and can still use them albeit cautiously but im still confused as to the plumbing arrangement. i really do appreciate your guidance and hopefully tomarrow i can get some pics of what im working with and monday when i can get a ride to town get some of this medium too and add a pic of it. highest regards to all of you. john |
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| Author: | JohnnyH [ Nov 28th, '08, 10:02 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
dave - "Was it the same stuff as kitty litter?" brother dave i would say yes and no  same size but different color. this stuff is sorta beige and the cat litter is really white. this stuff im inquiring about is way less dusty than cat litter too.i saw a big semi dump unload and it did not make but very small dust cloud. very small for 20 tons but its the same size or really really close. best regards, john |
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| Author: | Outbackozzie [ Nov 28th, '08, 17:08 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
Well for starters, surely someone in Flo-rida can come to the rescue, its a bit far for me. I'll start from the top. For pictures, resize them to 800 x 600 for landscapes, and save to a maximum file size of 256kb. You use linux, so I am sure you know a way to do this. Windows users mostly use Microsoft Image Resizer. I use Paint.NET. Small aquarium rocks will work well as a media, some of us have sand growbeds. If there is an option to add some bigger rocks in, this can help with plant stability in wind. 330 gallons of media....for a 1000 gallon fish tank. This will work (deep totes are ok), If you could find a couple of bathtubs to add in, it would work even better. The ideal world has 1:2 ratio, I currently run 1:0.5 still works fine Your tank works fine without any growbeds, having even a couple will pretty much eliminate the need for water changes.Your visualization of the flow is correct. Most timers will handle pretty much any pump us Ap'er can throw at them. Only becomes an issue over 1kw really. I dont know about american test kits, I am sure TCL can help here. Have the water enter the top of the tote, and leave via the bottom at the opposite end. Place big rocks around the exit point to stop blockages, and make sure that you are able to remove the exit pipe later to clear any blockages. For totes that size I dont know if standpipes are a viable option?? |
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| Author: | Outbackozzie [ Nov 28th, '08, 17:13 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
This is a sump version, but it should give you an idea of the flow:  CTRL and + can zoom in on some browsers. |
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| Author: | JohnnyH [ Nov 28th, '08, 22:48 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
you guys and gals in this forum are absolutely the best. top shelf!  im not lost anymore (for now) im sure in the right place to find out solution to not anything i not understand. and like my gal pal says to me " using junk is an art" making something work from something else is a good skill and not to be ashamed of. some well sighted ppl cant make new stuff work correctly she says. she also reminded me that if and when the ssi decides in my favor maybe i might can purchase a new complete system. and that having cobbled together a home brew setup will enable me to know what will fit us best. thats so very true. its all good. and with me being really poorly sighted it surely does not have to be very pretty, just functioning and produce something. im using old ubuntu and their digikam proggie but it will not input pics to hd and i cant figure out why. it has in the past. checked cam batts ,input connections and everything i can think of and still no transfer of pics. bleh! i so wanted to show you all what i have in progress. i really think (for now) a gravity flow system is wtg for us. put pump on timer to save electricity and just tend it like a new baby  Lesia is now onboard with my AP mindset and says we will surely need a greenhouse being here in north florida. sunday or monday they calling for flurries here and i have actually built 2 small snowmen in florida in the past. maybe this will be the 3rd time? dunno, but she is correct with our GH need. until i get that built its way way to cold for much AP for us. i dug 3 small pit type gh yesterday and used some old double pane commercial windows. the soil is warm now and its cloudy and cold. so i found myself starter beds im a digging fiend. i built a homebrew tornado shelter using truck tires,posts and poly like an earthship. not quite finished. need help to hang my overly built doors but it was at very least 30 yards of dirt by hand. i can do stuff its just way way slow to complete by myself. blindness will teach you patience even if you never had any before the sandy soil is easy digging thats its only good point imho. it sure wont grow much except cactus and aloe. AP for me! AP for me hehehehe ill close this rambling novel now. highest regards and respects to you all. much thanks too. john |
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| Author: | hydrophilia [ Nov 28th, '08, 23:30 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
Welcome to the madness! TCLynx has been raising channel cats that, I believe, she got at her local feed store (If only it were so easy here in California!). They can handle most temperatures you encounter and, while not as efficient as tilapia, will be easier to deal with as far as temperatures. Tilapia will handle poorer water quality, but need warmer temperatures.. |
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| Author: | JohnnyH [ Nov 29th, '08, 01:12 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question |
well i was hoping to try tilapia for an eating fish but i have never tasted one , i really dont know what is tasty fw fish to me as only fish i have ever consumed is of sw variety being mouth brooders i thought would make our life some easier too as lesia would enjoy "saving the babys" im sure of it. i hate to keep poor mouthing but finances are serious issue for us(we think do well on way less than 5k per year for 2 of us, 3 dogs and pb pig) so any way i can cut or negate costs i have to do it. the 100 dollars permit is totally out of my reach. the us has money issues they finally waking up to. we have lived it for going on 5 years, maybe i become some guru on low bucks living one day hahaha. many folks are just plain wasteful and reality check is heavy inbound sadly to say i know ican catch fish anywhere anytime usually so maybe ill just add wild cats. i dunno yet. maybe even crawfish if my cajun commection comes thru for me. whatever i do i must keep to the "kiss" method and lowest outlay of cash for setup and maitainance. as in a good AP system , we here at club possum must "convert" well daily. catfish may just be our new resident but i must investigate all paths that are open to us and whats particular to each that might cause me problems. all of you folks are a real blessing with this guidance you send to me , i wish i knew a way to properly express how happy i am about finding AP and this place and my thanks to you all. john |
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| Author: | JohnnyH [ Nov 29th, '08, 02:51 ] | ||
| Post subject: | Re: growing medium and ratio question | ||
ok i fixed the cam and want to add pics . cross fingers Attachment:
File comment: this the "filler" product filler.JPG [ 60.72 KiB | Viewed 9873 times ] i tried to do a flow test using the 5 gallon pail i had used before for the berries. i filled bucket and it took 6 minutes to empty thru the 1/2" outlet Attachment:
File comment: flow thru 1/2" flow.JPG [ 62.2 KiB | Viewed 9871 times ] hopefully i can manifold it or increase outlet size or even mix with larger medium and still use this low cost altrnative?
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