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Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
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Author:  rken [ Sep 15th, '09, 21:20 ]
Post subject:  Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
Would adding ammonia to your tank prior to adding fish jump start the Ammonia to Nitrite and Nitrite to Nitrate conversion by giving the Nitrifying Bacteria a head start. Just a thought as it seems that many failures are the result of Nitrate build up at start up before the bacteria have had a chance to colonize the tank and beds.
Author:  ivansng [ Sep 15th, '09, 21:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
Hi,

I think what you are talking about is fishless cycling. Use the Search function in this forum to find out more about it.

And I doubt it is the nitrate build up at start up causing failures since nitrate is the last cycle of the nitrifying process and if you have nitrates, your bacteria should have colonised already. Possibly take a while to build up to a sufficient colony size to process the ammonia and nitrites efficiently.
Author:  rken [ Sep 16th, '09, 01:32 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
Hi Ivansng

I was basically referring to the whole process from ammonia to nitrates. Thanks for the fishless cycling clue. I will check it out. rken
Author:  Confuzedd [ Sep 21st, '09, 05:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fis
Quick question, kinda a hi-jack but still would be helpful for the TC to know.

It is said that too high an ammonia level will inhibit bacteria growth. What about the nitrite spike? Does the same rule apply?
Author:  TCLynx [ Sep 21st, '09, 05:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
Yes, adding ammonia to kick start cycling is what we call fishless cycling and it is definitely a good idea since you can get the bacteria cycled up without worry of killing the fish. Just make sure the ammonia doesn't have any additives that would hurt the fish or stop the bacteria (soap, fragrance or detergent is often added to ammonia and that would be very bad for the fish.)

Super high ammonia levels can slow down the cycling process. You only need to dose ammonia up to 1 or 2 ppm to get things started.
I don't know that nitrite spiking too high would inhibit the process (I just don't know as I've never heard anyone mention it.)

Warning, if using humonia (urine) pee to jump start the process, fresh urine takes a period of time for the urea to convert to ammonia (I believe there is an enzyme that does this and it is already included in the urine) So if you pee in the tank and test a few hours later, you will probably not see any ammonia reading yet. Please don't pee in it again as it would probably cause an overdose of ammonia in a few days. The only time you need to have a pee party to jump start a system is if it is a really really big system (like a swimming pool size system.) Anything smaller than say 600 gallons is only likely to need about one pee for the first dose, then wait till you see the ammonia levels start dropping before dosing again.
Author:  sustainablehope [ Sep 21st, '09, 06:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
Use Ammonia Chloride at 1mg/L dose in your system without fish.

Therefore 1ml/L of water volume.

Plenty of Air into the system and watch your pH - check Alkalinity.

Check your WQ tests 2x/day and keep an eye on your Nitrification cycle. Keep recors and plot data on a graph if you want.

This is very common approach in kickstarting commercial Aquaculture Biofilters.
Author:  Tony in TAS [ Dec 21st, '09, 19:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
What about throwing in some seedlings and then dosing with seasol?
You give the seedlings a light spray and then I think its about 1/2 a cup a day into each grow bed for 4 weeks ish.
Using straight ammonia I would have thought is asking for trouble if you get the dosing just slightly wrong.?
Cheers
T
Author:  RupertofOZ [ Dec 21st, '09, 20:00 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
Nitrification.... conversion to Nitrates... WILL NOT commence until ammonia is zero...

Adding Urea is an alternative to Ammonia Chloride...
Author:  MrOrange [ Dec 21st, '09, 20:30 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
RupertofOZ wrote:
Nitrification.... conversion to Nitrates... WILL NOT commence until ammonia is zero...


I can't agree with this, sorry.

Nitrate conversion will commence once you have the presence of Nitrite, regardless of ammonia.

I've recorded many a nitrification process over the years, even my most recent effort on the aquaponics setup shows Nitrate jumping while still in the presence of high Ammonia levels.

Your own results seem to disagree with your last statement :)
http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=214476#p214476
Author:  RupertofOZ [ Dec 21st, '09, 20:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
We're talking about cycling a system MrOrange... in my post you would have noticed that I said the system had been previously cycled... and that the feed load had surpassed the filters capacity... .i.e the nitrifying bacteria just weren't able (due to limitations of the filters bio-filtration area) to expand further to accomodate the load...

Here's a typical cycling graph...

Attachment:
graph2.jpg
graph2.jpg [ 89.44 KiB | Viewed 9152 times ]


You can see quite clearly.... and research constantly repeats the fact.... that ammonia inhibits nitrification... it will not commence until ammonia begins to fall... and continues in an adverse relationship.... expanding exponentially once all traces of ammonia are gone...
Author:  MrOrange [ Dec 21st, '09, 21:54 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
RupertofOZ wrote:
and research constantly repeats the fact.... that ammonia inhibits nitrification... it will not commence until ammonia begins to fall... and continues in an adverse relationship.... expanding exponentially once all traces of ammonia are gone...


You did earlier say zero.

Also, you've posted a 'typical' graph someone has made to demonstrate the cycle. In the real world it rarely works like this. Often sustained levels of ammonia / nitrite rather than these perfectly linear rise and fall graphs you've posted.

Can you post some links to said research?

IMO, gained through years of breeding aquarium fish, reading, understanding and practical experience Nitrates simply exist once Nitrobacter colonise after the presence of Nitrite. I see little relationship between the two other than time.

You could always test your theory.. overload a system (by overload I mean keep it at 8ppm) with ammonia for 3 weeks. My bet is by week 2 you will have registered nitrate, by week 3 you will have Nitrates off the chart (160+)while your ammonia and nitrate are still sky high.

It's simply untrue to state Nitrates cannot exist in the presence of Ammonia.
Author:  MrOrange [ Dec 21st, '09, 22:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
Gah, 5 minute edit.

I wanted to add I could save you the trouble on that little experiment, because I've already done it :)

I came to the realisation I missed the barra season (a few elements of my system are incomplete) however I did want stellar plant growth between now and the trout season. Within 3 weeks I shot to 160+ nitrates. Planted out when I reached this level and I have seen amazing plant growth in the first week. Unlike other new systems which seem to sit stagnate for a few weeks (obvious when you think in a new system there is no nitrate), mine has taken off.

I'll have to start a thread soon, but in any case, this is slightly OT. I am truely amazed by the growth rate out of AP, for so long I've been reading other people's threads and wondering if it were really true!. My Dad planted the same lettuce type / punnet in a dirt garden on the same day (last sunday) as mine in the new AP system, his are watered once per day, 7 days a week. Mine are at least 3 times the size already. At this rate I'll be eating AP lettuce by christmas.
Author:  RupertofOZ [ Dec 21st, '09, 23:22 ]
Post subject:  Re: Adding ammonia to to start up tanks- prior to adding fish
MrOrange wrote:
You did earlier say zero.

True... effectively... what I should have said... was that nitrification (to nitrates) will not commence until ammonia begins to decline.... and wont "explode" to completely process... until ammonia levels are zero...

Quote:
Also, you've posted a 'typical' graph someone has made to demonstrate the cycle. In the real world it rarely works like this. Often sustained levels of ammonia / nitrite rather than these perfectly linear rise and fall graphs you've posted.

Again, true... in some aspects/cases....

Sustained levels of ammonia/nitrite can occur.... and represent an imbalance... but again the completion of nitrate conversion ... will not occur until such time as that imbalance has been rectified... and ammonia is zero...

There are many factors that can create this imbalance... particularly temperature, pH and availablitiy of oxygen...

The imbalance is temporary (although possibly extended)... and represents an "intermediary" stage where nitrobacter reign...

True nitrification only occurs (recent research) once nitrospira correct the imbalance... for it has now been shown that it is Nitrospira... not Nitrobacter that dominates and is responsible for nitrification... in both freshwater and salt water systems... :wink:

Quote:
Can you post some links to said research?

See my article "Is the accepted view of nitrification a myth" in Issue #5 of the BYAP magazine... it includes all the relevant citations...

Quote:
IMO, gained through years of breeding aquarium fish, reading, understanding and practical experience Nitrates simply exist once Nitrobacter colonise after the presence of Nitrite. I see little relationship between the two other than time.

Again partially true.... length of time due primarily to temperature... key words... after nitrite... where nitrobacter temporarily reign... until Nitrospira dominate...

Quote:
You could always test your theory.. overload a system (by overload I mean keep it at 8ppm) with ammonia for 3 weeks. My bet is by week 2 you will have registered nitrate, by week 3 you will have Nitrates off the chart (160+)while your ammonia and nitrate are still sky high.

It's simply untrue to state Nitrates cannot exist in the presence of Ammonia.

We're talking of cycling a new system... seeding a system, as is commonly done... will shorten the cycling time.... but if you're suggesting a new system in your example... then until ammonia begins to fall from the peak of 8ppm... nitrates will not register... nitrites will climb to probably 5 +...

As ammonia falls... Nitrates will begin to register... and once ammonia disappears, where upon nitrites will drop to zero within a week... Nitrates may well explode to the levels of 160+ as you post... corresponding to the initial high ammonia level...

If by "overloading" the system... you mean pushing an existing "cycled" system to 8ppm of ammonia... then again yes... as ammonia drops, with the prepresence of nitrospira from pre-cycling... nitrates can rise dramatically...

Process time is still dependant on temperature and pH though...
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