Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I have just got my system set up and looking for information on how much time it takes to cycle (not as in prepare the water but to run the cycle of flood and drain - via bell siphon)....

I have the following:
growbed = 72"(L) x 27"(W) x 12"(H)
fish tank = (max which will not be full) 110 gallons
DWC approx 18 gallons (max which will not be full)

I have a 1300 gph pond pump.
Initially when I set it up to check for leaks and to see if the bell siphon worked, I was cycling at
the following rate (with the flow valve coming off pond pump set at about half)
Filled the grow bed until siphon started then started timing it....
siphon stopped - siphon started = right at an hour (time it took to fill the GB again)
It has since been 1 hour and 10 minutes and the grow bed is about half empty - nowhere near the trigger for the siphon to start again......


I figure that is way too long but I don't know what numbers I am shooting for.
Any suggestions (please)?

Projected fill time for that size GB = ??
Projected drain time = ??
I am using 3/4" pvc with the pump putting water into the GB and using 1" pvc to drain it out through the bell siphon.
I want to make sure the water has enough time to be cleaned to go back into the fish tank and also that there is enough time for there to be fish waste to "feed" the plants going up into the GB. (I don't have fish yet and I have not cycled the water (Ph balances etc) yet because I am still trying to figure the pipe layout according to the time necessary to fill and drain the gb.
Thank you.

oh yes....
I was planning on running the pump full time (as opposed to being on a timer)

Hi Di

I personally think people get too hung up on the fill and drain cycle times. The BYAP system trials prove this.

A CF system is flooded all the time and has very similar growth to a system on F&D on timer or auto syphon - IMHO why would anyone bother with timers or syphons?

My recommendation (and only mine) is to pull the bell out and run it CF.

Its easy and removes a bunch of failure points.

Possibly the flow is too high.. it needs a lot less flow to trigger when there's media in the growbed compared to testing it with just water in the empty growbed.. it also only needs about 1/3 the amount of water to fill up.. With mine I had to drop an inch long peice of smaller diameter pipe down the standpipe also, because lowering the flow enough to cause it to break was to low for it to start again..

Charlie,
I am sorry but since I planned on doing the bell siphon I had not done research on BYAP system nor on CF so I am not sure what you mean just yet. I will look into it though. (by chance do you mean to pull the bell off and leave the stand pipe and just let it flow out from the level of the top of the stand pipe all the time?) [not meaning to sound like a stupid question... I am sorry]


Amph,
I do understand about the flow being different in a media-filled vs empty and I know the times would vary but the fact that it took so long to drain out with more water coming in made me think that I did not want it to stand in there forever nor did I want it in there too little amount of time to do its 'magic'

Once I turned off the water to the grow bed, it did not take long at all for the bed to empty and the siphon never failed... it comes on and goes off exactly where I wanted it to.... it is the amount of water going into the GB from the pump that I think is the issue.
But then again.... once I know more about what Charlie is talking about... who knows.. I might change my mind (again).
I just want to get this going so I can cycle the water and get fish in and plants in.....
I have planned and changed and planned and changed... just want to find something that works and move forward
Thanks for the points to ponder.

ok stupid me... BYAP = this forum. Was so not thinking.

Sorry I do get caught up in the acronyms sometimes.

CF stands for constant flooded and is exactly as you explained - remove the bell and the water exits the standpipe back to the FT (fish tank) and the water level in the GB (grow bed) will be set by the hieght of the standpipe and the pump runs constantly.

I played with syphons a lot in the begining and they do take a bit of mucking around with the water flow to get them right. Water flow too fast and the syphon wont break....water flow too slow and the syphon wont start etc etc.

Now I run my beds on CF and I never have to play with water flow again or worry about a syphon playing up and I havnt noticed any difference with growth - still powers along as per usual. Some plants actually grow better.

I do however drop a syphon in on the standpipe and drain the beds once every month or two just to get ther solids moved around a bit and freshen up the beds.

The BYAP (you guessed it - BackYardAquaPonic) system trials are here its worth a read through.

Good luck

Di,

If you are concerned about the circulation of water on your beds drill a 6mm hole in your stand pipe at the bottom and add a timer to the pump. Most seem to use 15 mins on and 45 minutes off. Check to ensure that the bed drains completely in the 45 minutes, if it doesn't add another 6mm hole.

Now you don't have to remember to drop the bell over the stand pipe, all of your water is evacuated and the plants that don't like to be in water won't be and there is a about 75% savings in electricity

Please note I did not investigate how your system was configured to see of this would be suitable but if you are doing CF you should be fine.

James

James,
I am not set up yet... just in the start stages of figuring it out. I do know, however, that I did not want to put the pump on a timer. From most all I have read, that shortens the life of the pump and I don't wish that... it was not cheap.
Not sure how it will tip the scales with cost of pump vs electricity bill but I want to run a pump solid time at least for now. I might change my mind later at some point... seems that is happening a lot lol

Charlie,
Thank you for the "here" link.. will go start reading. And also, thank you for the confirmation on what I believed you were talking about. Will take it into consideration and also keep in mind that the bell should go on once in a while to freshen things up.
Question please.... can earthworms (red wigglers) live in a CF system (do you know?) I was hoping to incorporate them at some point as well and don't want to kill them.

Thank you for the help.... looking forward to learning more.

Actually it's not realy that important that the bed completely drain for timed flood and drain either... The most important thing is to make sure you pump the volume of your tank into the growbeds during that 15 minute "on" window.

Running a timed flood and drain with no timer is the same a constant flood . You must have a big enough tank, or run CHIFT PIST (constant height in fish tank, pump in sump tank) to run a flood and drain standpipe. Though if you are doing syphons already you'll be okay.

I'm not sure why people think timed f&d will ruine a standard magnetic drive pump. But it definately does increase the chances of something clogging in it and not starting again, which could burn the pump out I guess.

My beds are full of worms Di, they live fine in flooded beds as there is oxygen available in the water.

Flood and Drain by timer does put a load 'spike' on the pump everytime it starts up and reaches max head.

How this compairs to a pump run constantly and the life expectancy of the both....I dont know......I havnt trialed this.

Di, pretty much everything works just fine.

I've run the same half blue barrel grow bed...

* so that its always full (Constant flood) and overflowing into the standpipe (normal bell siphon but with the bell removed)
* With a normal bell siphon, but with the end cap (top) of the bell removed, and running constant flood (my choice for constant flood options, because it pulls water from the bottom, and I get the feeling if you pull water from the top of the standpipe the water at the bottom of your grow bed doesn't get turned over as well)
* with a bell siphon at 12 minutes to fill 12 minutes to drain
* with a bell siphon at 24 minutes to fill 12 minutes to drain
* I just found a radish in my pocket
* with a bell siphon at 45 minutes to fill 15 minutes to drain
* with a bell siphon at 6 minutes to 1/2 fill and 2 minutes to 1/2 drain (current setup, but dont give it a second thought as it's just some wacky experiment I'm doing)

And probably a few others, but I never noticed any difference at all no matter what I did.

I think part of the reason why there is no single approach that everyone uses, is because it all works, and if there is any real difference, it's too small to care about when there are other considerations that are more important (things like "But that's the size pipe I happen to have")

Is there media in your grow bed already? If not, and you are just testing, as Amph mentioned, the siphon will behave differently.

When there is media, there is a lot less water in the grow bed. When it's full and triggering the system, the water is rising faster because most of the space is taken up be the media, and when it's draining, there is a lot less water to drain.

My head's in a bit of a fog at the moment, and gallons mean nothing to me, but I think you have a huge pump for your system, and a 1 inch standpipe should drain very quickly.


------------ But ----------------
Something doesnt add up.

Are you saying it's taking an hour to drain and perhaps 2 hours 20 minutes to fill?

I'm guessing a 1 inch stand pipe should drain that bed in a few minutes, and half a 1300GPH pump should fill it in a few minutes.

Can you put up a photo of the system, a photo of the flow into the grow bed, and a photo of the flow exiting the siphon and into the fish tank (or where ever it goes)

Are you using the DWC as a sump?

If you have media in the grow bed already, no matter what it's doing, you can add some form of nutrient, and start cycling now to get the ball rolling. If you dont have media, you might want to hold off adding it for a bit until you get the siphon stuff sorted.

If you have an air stone, fill a bucket with media and water with the air stone in the bottom, and some fish food or other source of ammonia (most store bought ammonia has soap in it so be careful) and you will get a head start on your cycling by cycling up a bucket of media that you can add to your system when it's ready.

Sorry, I had to edit that to make it mean something. If you already read it you might want to refresh your browser and read it again

BullwinkleII,
I can answer most of your questions but I had to drain all the water to finish the set up (long story)....
No, no growbed media used yet... empty growbed.
No fish
No plants
DWC sits higher than anything and then drains into a pipe that has holes to put seedlings in then into the growbed.
In my initial "test" I filled the GB until the siphon started. The siphon stopped at 6:58pm and the GB started to fill again..... at 7:52 the siphon started again while the water was still running into the GB from the pump.... an hour and some later, the GB was only half empty. (the hour+ was the bed filling AND emptying at the same time and it was nearly at an even balance with slight to the siphon side but not enough to make it good.... I don't know how long it would have taken to empty because eventually I got tired of waiting and turned off the pump and let the GB go ahead and finish the siphon - at that rate it might have taken all night long)
I will fully agree with you that my pump is huge for what I have right now... but as I was warned many times when starting this.... "You will want to expand - get the best pump you can"
So I did. I am thinking that if I do choose to go siphon, I will simply add a regulator valve before it goes into my components.... or if I do the CF, it won't be an issue (except that I will still need one on the DWC because it will fill faster than the drain will compensate (don't ask how I know that.... well go ahead... experienced it tonight oops lol). I have a couple of the valve regulators though so no biggie if I can ever figure out exactly how I want to configure it.
As for photos... I will have to take some when I get it filled back up.

Radishes in pockets are a good thing if you have a salt shaker in the other one.... that comment made me giggle though.

Thank you all for the answers.... learning as I go here and what an awesome adventure.