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Complete Food Chain
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Author:  royale [ Nov 9th, '06, 13:04 ]
Post subject:  Complete Food Chain
Has/is anyone trying to get a complete food chain going? Is it possible on a backyard scale?
ie, algae & duckweed feeding small fast breeding fish/crustaceans which in turn are fed to a more desirable species?
What would be worth looking at in the way of small fast breeding and growing fish/crustaceans that eat algae?
Ideas anyone?
Author:  creative1 [ Nov 9th, '06, 13:23 ]
Post subject: 
Nup- but that is closing the loop!
So go for it we would love to hear.
C1
Author:  Asitis [ Nov 9th, '06, 13:23 ]
Post subject: 
I don't know so I watch this thread egarly :)
Author:  Daniel [ Nov 9th, '06, 14:05 ]
Post subject: 
once i have quarantined my shrimp long enough to go into the tank with the fish, i could probably achieve this, but only with a very small stocking density of fish.
Farming fish in farm dams extensively rely on this, and they fertilise their ponds before adding fish to increase algae growth, which in turn supports more microorganisms, and so on
Author:  Daniel [ Nov 9th, '06, 14:10 ]
Post subject: 
wait, if i did what was mentioned in my post above, i couldn't have any plants growing aquaponically with only an imput of CO2 and sunlight

well i have confused myself, i have a feeling that there would need to be an imput of fish food/nutrients to grow plants aquaponically as well

ah well someone else probably has some more helpful insight, and i will check this topic with eagerness to see if its possible
Author:  Gary Donaldson [ Nov 9th, '06, 18:02 ]
Post subject:  Re: Complete Food Chain
Hi,

We're committed to closing as many of the gaps in the food chain as we can.

Our food chain does include duckweed but I currently struggle to meet our existing needs.

Since Jade Perch are omnivores and they eat duckweed directly, we get to cut the need for feeder fish. However, we'd certainly be interested in this option when we move to species that are more carnivorous in habit.

I'm interested in any way of generating plant and animal protein intensively.....we've got duckweed, we grow worms, we've recently acquired some meal worms (which are turning into small darkling beetles) and we've begun to experiment with fly larvae.

We've fed enough earthworms, mealworms and maggots out of our worm beds to know that poultry and fish like to eat them. My goal is to develop a simple turnkey strategy for breeding regular quantities of live protein so that we can factor it into our poultry and fish rations on a year round basis.

I noted recent posts about the use of silk worm larvae......with interest.

Like others, I question the sustainability of using fish wastes to feed fish.....and I figure the more natural the diet, the more flavoursome the food that flows from it......eg.....farmed V. wild catch prawns.....field V. cultured mushrooms....organic corn-fed V. pellet-fed.

But I have to confess that a large part of my motivation in breeding fly larvae is the warm inner glow that I get when I think of the opportunities that I'm going to square up for the sins of their forebears.
Author:  Asitis [ Nov 9th, '06, 18:29 ]
Post subject: 
Nicely put Gary! Stickin' it to the fly! :D
Author:  aeldric [ Nov 9th, '06, 19:49 ]
Post subject: 
As I have commented previously (in other threads) I am working on it.

I have Silver Perch, algae, duckweed, water snails (two types), yabbies, and a lot of unnamed little bugs that seem to come out of thin air.
A few observations and results:
- Perch are omnivores: they will eat algae (particularly if it is a fibrous mess), duckweed, snails (especially young ones), yabbies (only young ones) and little water bugs. So basically the full spectrum.
- In an intensive system they will eat all of these things faster than they can breed. I lost all of my yabbies and small snails learning this lesson (the big snails are alive but cannot successfully breed - I should have provided the yabbies with better hiding places, they got eaten when they moulted).
- You need another pond for algae, bugs, etc. The conditions for intensively producing these critters is different from optimal conditions for intensive production of Perch.
- As a bonus, eating algae and the critters that feed on algae produces Perch that are high in Omega-3 oils.

Contact me if you want to talk about the details of breeding algae and small critters.
Author:  Jez [ Nov 9th, '06, 20:17 ]
Post subject: 
I've been thinking about this for about 18 months or so now since I first got Joel's book/DVD etc. If you're legally able to grow herbivores like Tilapia I think it would be pretty easy to have a closed system, but obviously it's a bit trickier with omnivores and carnivores.

Lately I've been wondering whether introducing a non-fish, cheaply available or easy to grow meat would do the trick? As I recall (not that I know much about it), aquarium carnivores do well on beef heart...so I'd imagine that as long as you're selective about what you use and researched amounts etc, you could feed them on meat.

In areas where they're abundant, kangaroo/wallaby could be a solution, while from a closed system perspective, breeding something like guinea pigs, rabbits or even goats could work. A combination of the meat and the richer offal like liver, heart, kidneys and brains of the above species would supply a large portion of a good balanced diet I'd imagine.

Snail farming could be another option worth exploring...though it's a fair bit of mucking around from what I've read.

I'm also very interested in exploring rearing feeder fish and other aquatic nutrient sources, but the concept of using an excess buck or rooster, or using a fast breeding, easily kept animal like a guinea pig or a rabbit, or using what you can't eat yourself from a kangaroo/wallaby, certainly has merit IMO.

For those unable or unwilling to source the above, I'm sure a visit to a friendly local butcher could provide a low cost feed supplement.

I'd imagine that a large part of the nutritional value of feeder fish comes from the internal organs and the bones...they don't have much actual meat on them. At face value, I can't see why similar things from other animals can't be an invaluable addition to a feeding regime.

It would certainly take the pressure off trying to provide a natural diet if you could source a few useful larger animals.
Author:  janethesselberth [ Nov 9th, '06, 20:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Complete Food Chain
Here in the states, mealworms are grown. I remember my father raising them for his angelfish, but with limited success, he says. I just recall a plastic box with corn meal, black beetles, and tan worms. Mealworms are about 2-3cm long if I remember correctly. Nice tasty bite-sized once you are past the small fingerling stage.

--Janet.
Author:  bio-farmer [ Nov 9th, '06, 20:29 ]
Post subject: 
if you haven't seen this site already it may be helpfull.

http://livefoodcultures.com/
Author:  Food&Fish [ Nov 10th, '06, 05:20 ]
Post subject:  Re: Complete Food Chain
I still like snails with garlic
Author:  purrsikat [ Nov 10th, '06, 06:56 ]
Post subject: 
This is the sort of thing I'm quite interested in. I worry about just doing the same thing that I'm already doing. Taking resources from one place, & displacing it for my own benefit. I only have a small area to grow things, so am curious as to how much room would actually be required to grow the feed, the fish & the produce.. what would be the smallest? I'm keen to try it out & experiment... One day, one day (soon, hopefully).. :D

Hmmm... i think snails taste like snot.. garlic or not. But that's just me!!! :lol: :lol:
Author:  gnoll110 [ Nov 10th, '06, 09:13 ]
Post subject: 
Daniel wrote:
once i have quarantined my shrimp long enough to go into the tank with the fish, i could probably achieve this, but only with a very small stocking density of fish.
Farming fish in farm dams extensively rely on this, and they fertilise their ponds before adding fish to increase algae growth, which in turn supports more microorganisms, and so on


Daniel wrote:
wait, if i did what was mentioned in my post above, i couldn't have any plants growing aquaponically with only an input of CO2 and sunlight

well i have confused myself, i have a feeling that there would need to be an input of fish food/nutrients to grow plants aquaponically as well

ah well someone else probably has some more helpful insight, and i will check this topic with eagerness to see if its possible


I'd like to add two comments about Daniels posts.

Firstly, about fish growers fertilizing their dams to increase algae & intermediate organisms before adding fish. This fertilizer is effectively embodied fossil fuel energy. In the systems we are trying to build, we can do these kinda things, but the way we do them means the scale will differ. Our processes will require more labour, land/water area, time and/or capital/materiels so that we can embody solar energy. We can play with the mix, but it won't be the fast easy fix of cheap fossil fuels.

Secondly, Daniel commented about growing algae precluded growing plants aquaponically. True, but another way to think of it, is that the fish components of the system produces a certain amount of nitrogen. It's your decision as the designer/maintainer to determine how much of the nitrogen flow goes to plant production (for human/animal use) and how much goes to algae production (for internal system feed stocks).

Gnoll110
Author:  creative1 [ Nov 10th, '06, 09:29 ]
Post subject:  snails..
purrsikat wrote:

Hmmm... i think snails taste like snot.. garlic or not. But that's just me!!! :lol: :lol:


Sounds personal to me as I haven't eaten much snot..hehe!

but yesterday funnilly enough I did notice a snail, huge garden snail I must say, thinking it would have some food value!
But didn't think anything more about eating it...

...I think the more diverse an area(waterbody in this case) the more chance of sustainability...knowning that if you take parts out of something then those parts need to be replaced for the function to return..

sorry for rant...C1
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