Backyard Aquaponics
A place to discuss aquaponics

I had an Idea come to me on the weekend, while cleaning gravel for my new GB (I had quite a few hours of cleaning to do). Is there a source of Nitrite that we can add to a new system, at the same time as we add an Ammonia source, so that both types of bacteria can begin to grow at the same time. Instead of waiting for the Ammonia spike, then the Nitrite spike, we could go through both spikes at the same time, then cycling would be over quicker...
Hopefully Newbys would then only have to wait 2-3 weeks of cycling then getting fish, instead of 4-6 weeks, getting impatent and having fish deaths.
Hopefully that makes sense,
Wavey.

Wavey...The nitrifying bacteria.... nitrify the "Nitrites" into "Nitrates"...

Adding Seasol might add some Nitrogen/Nitrates to the system... and benefit any plant growth...

But the cycling system would be unaffected...

From an aquarium point of view the quickest way to cycle a system is to add a few fish at a time. An un-cycled tank can easily cope with a couple of fish.

When I set up my 600L indoor aquarium the pet shop said to put in 2 – 5 fish and then take water readings every couple of days. Once I started to see Nitrates/Nitrites it meant that the filter was beginning to become established and I added another few more fish and so on. Theory is a tank will cycle better with fish in it. Only problem with this is that is isn't always easy to go get 2 fingerlings at a time.

Alternative is to get something cheap and expendable like goldfish.

On my first go I tried using Powerfeed(seasol) to establish my system over 2 weeks. When I added the fish they all started going belly up within 3 hours and were all dead within 6. Restarted with some goldies and doing water changes from the indoor aquarium and the next 20 trout I put in about 3 weeks later all survived (discounting 3 jumpers found on the floor)

Well seems like this thread might be going a bit off topic as the real question was whether there was a ammonia and nitrite source that can be added to the water to speed up cycling. In other words, to have nitrosomonas and nitrobacter (or nitrospira) growing and multiplying at the same time. Instead of waiting for nitrosomonas to convert ammonia to nitrite and then for nitrobacter to start growing...

I am not sure whether the above is possible but I think there is a natural cycle to everything, so maybe the advice to newbies is let things take its natural course...

But we can use nature to our advantage... like cycle in summer (or when water temperature are consistently above 20degC; optimum 25degC to 30degC).

I think fishless cycling using hummonia is the way to go... hummonia is waste to us anyway, and we pay councils to transport it away from our homes... why pay for another form of ammonia when you are pissing your natural form in the drain??

I reckon the reason why most people advice using fish to cycle the fish tank or aquarium is because many people don't understand the nitrogen cycle to start with, and when you tell them to pee in their tank, they look at you funny. Imagine an aquarium shop owner telling a customer to pee in their tank? And why would they anyway, they sell more fish by telling them to buy fish to cycle the tank. Dead fish?... sorry! told you less fish, buy more to replace...

I guess you could add some ammonia nitrite. However I'm sure it's a controlled substance... it's quite evil and can be explosive.

Powerfeed... is not the same as the usual Seasol that members commonly use.... it's Seasol with chemical fertiliser additives... some have used it to fishless cycle... but I'd be a little wary...




Nitrobacter, or more correctly nitrospira..... wont appear and grow ... UNTIL the ammonia spike has gone....

The ammonia kills them Rupe?

With Kuda on this question Rupe
Is that "until the ammonia spike has gone"
or "until the ammonia has been converted to nitrite for them to feed on"
but this is probably a moot point because as Kuda has pointed out the DOT classification of
ammonium nitrate is "forbidden" and the MSDS states it is liable to explode with shock or on heating to 60 to 70 degrees C and is accutely toxic to humans and fish - not something I'd like to have floating around in the garden shed!
Think its probably best to just let our freindly bacteria make it for us in a form that is a little safer.
John

Nitrospira is inhibited by ammonia... and wont develope until the ammonia has "spiked" and begun to fall... the bacteria then begin to colonise in an almost inverse relationship to the ammonia level...

i.e as the ammonia falls, the nitrospira, hence nitrates rise....



Typically as ammonia spikes to it's maximum level and begins to fall... it does so rapidly... often within a few days.... and nitrospira begin appearing.... co-inciding with nitrobacter and the "nitrite spike"...

It's only when ammonia drops to zero... that the nitrospira really crank up and begin nitrate production in earnest... effectively tripling immediately that all ammonia is gone...

I kinda agree with the suggestion of letting nature take it's course. I know that too high an ammonia spike can also slow the process (I wonder if too high a nitrite spike might also be bad) and if you were to add both ammonia and nitrite at the same time, then the nitrite spike would get really really high and since the bacteria that takes care of nitrite is inhibited by ammonia as well, you might not speed anything up at all.

Now on a more academic note. Look Up the old thread Conversations with a really smart Guy or probably simpler to search for the oldest threads with "RSG filter" as a phrase. This talks about how it is possible to convert Nitrate back into Nitrite in an environment with reduced oxygen. From such, I believe with degassing it is possible to then outgas the nitrite to nitrogen gas which is what some of the bakki showers are trying to do in fish ponds without enough plants to take up all the nitrates. So perhaps there might be a way to add nitrates into a set up with an anoxic (sp?) environment to turn them into nitrites which one might then be able to use somehow. But then you would probably need the system to be cycled split into two separate systems for the cycling both ammonia and nitrite at once to work. So that you could add the ammonia to one and the nitrite to the other and let them cycle in parallel. Then you would go and re-combine the system and dose again with some ammonia and see if the alternate beds managed to cycle up with the missing bacteria quicker. However, I don't expect that this method would really work out to be any quicker since you would first have to build some set up to create the nitrite and then have a main system that you could divide into two separate systems for the addition of two separate doses. Then once that initial start up was complete, it would still need to be re-combined and dossed some more to let it all mix together, perhaps with some cross mixing of gravel from the two separate sections.

So, while Theoretically, it is an interesting idea. I doubt that practically it really has much benefit. You can speed things up far better by washing a filter from an established pond or aquarium into your grow beds. I am also a bit proponent of a hand full of worms along with their castings in each grow bed providing a wonderful dose of beneficial bacteria to help get the ball rolling. As soon as you have the ability to pump some water through some gravel (even if it is only one partially filled grow bed, have a pee (or better yet add a few hundred ml of aged pee.) Then the system can be getting going while you are still working on washing more gravel and hooking up more grow beds. So long as you are not washing the filters or filling the system with heavily chlorinated water or water with chloramine, these things will greatly help. And of course you can trade some one with an established system for a bucket of live gravel.

Spot on TCL.... as are your further comments...



A classic example is employing slow flow trickle towers (as I did) when cycling.... the result, even with virtually nil ammonia.... is a prolonged nitrite spike... and an uncycled system...

My trickle towers held my nitrite spike for over six weeks... once removed, the nitrite disappeared completely within two days and nitrates went from 5 to 40 within another two days...



Again I agree... you can help shorten the cycling process with these methods....

Prolonging the nitrite spike can be harmful to your fish.... unless you regularly, and constantly provide a level of salt to 1ppt...

Thanks Rupe
Great explanation and helpful diagram
John

From a scientific point of view, the theory is sound but unproven. The ammonia spike is regulated by nitrobacter- it's their food source so to say that it can't survive with excess ammonia (as in ammonia spike) is not sound thinking. If the nitrobacter could not survive in that environment, it would never start in the first place.

Angie - I have seen first hand that high ammonia levels stop nitrites. Having a high ammonia level effectively sterilises the system, and cycling has to start all over again.

It happened when a person put 1 cup of urea into a 1000 litre system, didnt get a reading of ammonia for the next 2 days, so kept adding urea.

It took nearly 3 months for the system to get rid of all the ammonia, because the ammonia stayed so high for so long that the nitrobacter could not get established. There was no nitrite spike until right at the end.

Wow... nice anectdote OB...
so if one lets his system go bad through over feeding, then you can expect a nitrite spike later, as some bacteria have been killed off by the ammonia... that's bad...
I had always thought the small nitrite spike we saw after an unintended ammo spike was due to there being more nitrite produced, not due to the nitrifying bacteria being depleted.
hmmm, much to ponder.