Good stuff TCL... I'm show it will be very helpful to many people pondering how to start an AP system...
Might be worth submitting to the BYAP mag....
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| Liner-Ponics http://byap.backyardmagazines.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=4704 |
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| Author: | TCLynx [ Jan 1st, '09, 23:23 ] |
| Post subject: | Liner-Ponics |
Once upon a time, some one (I don't remember who) asked what the next size up from barrel ponics would be and if there were instructions for it. Well, I don't think there was a good answer at the time. I suppose if some one had good access to used but appropriate IBC's they could do a pretty good IBC-Aponics system. IBC's don't seem to be nearly so easy to get for cheap around here so far that I've been able to find. Bathtubs are pretty good but not really much bigger than barrels. So, I've been mulling this over in my mind for ages, trying to work out what would be a relatively easy way to do... Liner-Ponics. Truth is with a little creative ingenuity, some one with the understanding of aquaponics, plumbing, and supporting a liner could probably come up with all sorts of system arrangement ideas. I have a lot of trouble telling people to do aquaponics a specific way when I know nothing of their particular situation. There are so many variables that affect how a system could be set up best. But anyway, I still managed to start coming up with some of the parts for a Liner-Ponic system, I'm still working on the idea though and I definitely haven't tested any of it. Lets start with the fish tank. If I took a cattle panel (16' long by 4' wide) and curved it around in to a circle, I would have a cylinder with a radius of 2.546 feet that is 4' high. If lined and only filled 3' deep (leaving a nice 1' of extra depth to keep fish from jumping out etc) I get a tank that holds about 450 gallons. This would require a chunk of liner about 20' by 20'. I'm not certain the cattle panel has small enough openings for this to really work properly but they also make horse panels that cost twice as much because the wires are much closer together. Then one just needs to sort out a strong enough way to secure the ends of the panel together that will support that much water. I think the overall cost of said tank will be less than $300. Now, if I were building one of these systems right now (I am not cause we don't have the money to spare at this point in time) I would sink the bottom 1 foot of this fish tank into the ground. Makes it easier to look and reach into the tank. I think a few posts around the tank would be a good idea for extra support and for a shade cover. Wraping some sort of insulating material around the outside of the tank would probably be good too. So, now I have a water level 2' above ground. 1st level of grow beds. These would be lumber lined grow beds placed so top of gravel is about 1' 10 inches above the ground so that the fish tank can feed it CHIFT. If I made three, 8' by 3' by 1' deep grow beds, it would be better than a 1:1 system in that single layer. I think three grow beds of that size can handle the amount of solids coming out of a tank that size if not too aggressively stocked. Liner plus shipping, probably about $130 Lumber and screws around $120 Blocks or other support for under grow beds $40 Next could either be a large on the ground grow bed equipped with a sump pump kinda like my monster grow bed. (I think it might be better to sink a barrel down next to such a grow bed and hook them together with a 3-4 inch pipe so that the pump could be in a deep area of water with the extra space for a top up float valve. Or make another fish tank like the first one but sink the bottom 3 feet into the ground, put a perferated pipe of holey barrel into it for the pump and then fill in the rest with gravel. Then you get a gravel filled sump that could grow some small trees so long as they don't mind kinda wet feet. This system could probably run by timer or continuous by auto syphons in the first level of grow beds. If running continuous, the flood and drain of the monster bed or the gravel filled sump won't be as reliable though. If one were to hook the first 3 beds together by a Flout could drain them together and the flow rate would not be critical to the flood and drain and the sump or monster bed would get a more reliable flood and drain. If running continuous pumping, the pump would not need to be all that big and $100 would probably be way more than enough for the pump budget. For timed pumping, a $200 pump budget would probably do it. Well, I think I'll make a separate post to work on adding it all up |
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| Author: | TCLynx [ Jan 1st, '09, 23:59 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
As to price. When I built the barrel ponics system, I made note of the prices of everything if you had to buy all parts to build the system. I think I came up with a price of under $300 to build a barrel ponics system but that did not include the price of gravel. Enough gravel to fill the barrel system would probably cost $50 or more if bought by the bag so that would probably up the total cost to somewhere under $350. So, the price of a liner ponics. This is of course an estimate as I've not tried building one of these. Tank $300 First 3 beds $300 Sump tank option $300 Barrel or large pipe for sump pump $15 Pump and timer for timed pumping option $220 Pipe, fittings and plumbing $100 6 ton of grave delivered $400 These are aprox prices for what it would probably cost me in materials to build it here in Central Florida, including shipping or delivery but tax is not figured in. So total for the 450 gallon fish tank CHIFT PIST with 3 lumber lined grow beds and mostly gravel filled sump. $1650 Rounded up to 1650 because there are always little things one forgets. Round it up to $2000 and one could probably have a nice little battery backup air or pump system to boot. |
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| Author: | TCLynx [ Jan 2nd, '09, 00:36 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
The monster grow bed option instead of the fish tank shaped sump would probably save around $80 on materials and provide more plant growing space. |
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| Author: | RupertofOZ [ Jan 2nd, '09, 00:57 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
Good stuff TCL... I'm show it will be very helpful to many people pondering how to start an AP system... Might be worth submitting to the BYAP mag....
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| Author: | TCLynx [ Jan 2nd, '09, 01:53 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
I guess the first person to actually build one can submit it. I currently don't have the cash for any 20' by 20' chunks of pond liner. |
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| Author: | dthawk [ Jan 2nd, '09, 10:15 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
Pond liner here is only about $4.00 per yard making the cost of the liner about $180.00. I am not sure I would go that route. I am having good luck with cement and chicken wire. Actually it would be plaster or mortar. use the chicken wire to make a circle as mentioned above,line the inside with plastic or cardboard and plaster the wire on the outside. Remove the plastic and plaster the inside and you have a thin strong ferro cement tank. You can do the same with the grow beds. I have a 600 gallon tank that cost less than $100 to build. Also I think it would help to sink the tank into the ground more so the growbeds don't have to be so high Happy new year by the way! |
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| Author: | TCLynx [ Jan 2nd, '09, 11:07 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
Well, I was planning to do CHIFT PIST so the grow beds need to be lower than the water level in the tank. With your Ferro cement tank, do you not have to seal it with a potable water safe paint or sealer? When I've looked for such sealers I usually decide they are more costly than the liner so I usually skip the idea of cement tanks. |
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| Author: | Dufflight [ Jan 2nd, '09, 14:42 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
Can you apply fiber glass to the inside of a Ferro cement tank. Or use a liner and wait for the cement to age. If the liner is still working in 10 years just leave it there. |
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| Author: | TCLynx [ Jan 2nd, '09, 21:54 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
It seems to me that if you put a liner in it, it kinda negates the cost savings of using the concrete instead of the liner. I suspect the same is probably true of fiberglass. |
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| Author: | dthawk [ Jan 3rd, '09, 03:17 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
Frankly, I have simply filled the tanks with water and moved ahead. if the mixture is done properly and the cement dries slowly, it won't crack. I hve no leaks and no seepage in my ferrocement tanks. I haven't done any testing to see if cement can be toxic but I would think not. It also helps buffer the water so the PH doesn't drift down. |
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| Author: | TCLynx [ Jan 3rd, '09, 05:14 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
I suppose you might need to start a ferro-cement ponics thread then! As to the pH, I suppose it might be a good idea to let it soak for quite a while to let the pH settle as I know concrete can have more of a buffering effect than is desirable. |
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| Author: | Dave Donley [ Jan 3rd, '09, 05:22 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
Hi DT: Do you have some pictures of your new tanks? I remember the first one you tried had problems. Do you have a good recipe now?  I plan to use pond liner in the ground as described by TC but not sure when that would happen. I could see an IBC becoming more useful-er when you want a more squarish aspect ratio than a wide shallow bed or tank/sump. My current plans include a partitioned long bed, and ther partitions make IBCs more attractive because if you were to make an equivalent cube shape with liner you'd end up wasting (doubling up) a good amount (unless you cut it and glued the pieces together instead of folding the corners). My plans have several 20'x20' pieces involved. There is a place in Baltimore that sells it for $0.46 per square foot, no shipping for me as it could be picked up there. Anyone have a pond lining that is not synthetic - I mean like daubing sime kind of clay and hay or something like that. I read a post on the aquaponics email list by a guy in Africa that mentioned something like that to seal a pond. |
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| Author: | hygicell [ Jan 3rd, '09, 05:41 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
Ferrocement used to be very popular in the sixties and seventies amongst young people without budget who wanted to see the world They built their sailboats with it quite a bunch of them circumnavigated the globe some of them still sail today from the Dutch Wikipedia page: Attachment: 570px-Ferrocementschip1.jpg [ 47.91 KiB | Viewed 2167 times ] the english Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocement see also: http://www.ferroboats.com/ for history, plans, building techniques, mixes and other tips there are many other sites on the subject frank |
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| Author: | dthawk [ Jan 3rd, '09, 05:52 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
Dave D I am so far behind on posting. Give me some time and I will start a thread and show pics of the process. I am further along than I was but nat as far as I hoped. I still haven't gotten a mason who can make the shell as thin as I would like. The ones I have are just over 1" thick and they are very heavy to move. They were made for tomatoes so they are 8' long by 12"x12". More than two people can handle for very long. In the process, after I remove the mold after 24 hrs, I turn it over and fill with water for 10 days to keep it from drying too quickly and I think it helps to seal the tank. Also there tends to be a bit of sludge that can be washed off the sides once you drain the water. after 140 days, I have a roma tomato plant that has produced about 28lbs of tomatoes. However it looks like the white flies got to it last week and I am going to have to pull it. All in all I like the ferrocement for my application but it may not be for everyone. |
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| Author: | Dufflight [ Jan 3rd, '09, 06:06 ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Liner-Ponics |
hygicell wrote: Ferrocement used to be very popular in the sixties and seventies amongst young people without budget who wanted to see the world They built their sailboats with it quite a bunch of them circumnavigated the globe some of them still sail today from the Dutch Wikipedia page: Attachment: 570px-Ferrocementschip1.jpg the english Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrocement see also: http://www.ferroboats.com/ for history, plans, building techniques, mixes and other tips there are many other sites on the subject frank Thanks for the links. Building a boat is on my list of stuff to try. Just got to find a way to hide it. I'm running out of space in the shed. 
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